What if only Wee Jas and Erythnul?

[I'm A Banana]

I'll give an alternate view of how the classes could go.

CORE
Barbarian: These guys are *perfect* for Erythnul's most common thugs, and I'd really hope to see barbarians thundering in against waves of undead in my head.

Bard: Eh...you could ditch 'em. This sounds like a very grim campaign, and bards kind of fly in the face of that. Of course, you could ALSO re-interpret them as "dirge singers" and alter their song powers to affect only undead, making them potent allies of Wee Jas (you'd probably want to change the alignment to Lawful rather than Any Nonlawful), or have them be relegated to "scream singers" that worship slaughter and evil and sing maddening hymns that drive those who hear them insane.

Cleric: They shouldn't need a whole lot of changing...do you really *need* every domain to be available? I'd say no. Work with what you have...the clerics of this world who can heal a bunch are in the minority. Which certainly works for the feel of a grim world...the cleric can't raise you from the dead, though they could turn you into an eternal servant.

Druid: I can only see these guys as beholden to the Many. You could have villainous druids working at many turns in the setting. I can't really see Wee Jas as being interested in either life or nature...though perhaps she'd have Spirit Shamans.

Fighter: Yeah, they're normal.

Monk: I think these guys fit the model of austerity that Wee Jas demands very well. The Many has his berserkers, the Gray Lady has her monks, and I could see many of them coming into contact. You may want to consider the "transformation" at 20th level to turn the monk into an Undead creature rather than an Outsider, if you're going to use the "Wee Jas doesn't use Outsiders" perspective.

Paladin: You could loose them; I don't see the setting benefitting that much from having noble nights. Indeed, paladins could work against the feel you're going for.

Ranger: Like the Druids, I can really only see these as beholden to the Many....ranger/assassins can be deadly wildnerness encounters, though!

Rogue: As per standard, no changes really needed. You may want to bring to bear that their Sneak Attack doesn't work against undead...you may want to change that (such as offering a feat that allows it to work), give them another class option (check out UA), or just note that the rogues are mostly agents of Wee Jas who fight living disciples of slaughter, and the servants of the Many rarely employ them (because they'd be useless with regards to the undead armies)/

Sorcerer: Not sure how you're going to want to do dragons, if at all, in your world, but high-Cha spellcasters certainly fit a vain goddess well, and without bards, Sorcs will be the only dogs in town. It would entirely be appropriate for them to be "consorts of the Gray Lady," or just her offspring, living in the world. Of course, The Many would have his own sorcerous agents (I certainly can't see him using many Wizards!)

Wizard: Wizards are a must for the servants of the Gray Lady, of course. Necromancers will be common, and you may want to give Heroes of Horror a look for the Dread Necromancer. Erythnul probably shouldn't have many of those....

Psionics
Because you're already using a goddess of magic, I'd steer away from psionics because they'd dilute the potency of the goddess. You could employ them as Erythnul's chosen mages to give the two a very distinct difference in style, but it's probably not nessecary to give Erythnul chosen mages beyond Sorcs.

Complete/PHBII
Hexblades (CW) can have a role, because they are mostly-martial classes with a bit of arcane kick thrown in, which is a perfect replacement for "Paladins of Wee Jas." In fact, Hexblades work PERFECTLY as a replacement for paladins in this campaign, being more atmospheric and with less baggage.
Spirit Shamans (CD) work well because of the preponderance of "undead spirits" in the world. They could easily replace druids in the campaign, talking to ghosts instead of talking to squirrels.
Warlocks are probably a good addition for the worshippers of the Many, and they could work as a replacement for Sorcerers for the "Lady's Favor" spellcasters. They're creepy and they're cooky, so they fit the world well.
Warmages might be a good addition on the Wee Jas side -- an ordered reigment dedicated to magic fits her fancy just fine.
Spellthieves would make sense as Erythnul's servants, stealing from the Lady and giving it to their own patron. However, they're flighty flavor text may go against the feel of the game if you want it grim.
Ninja actually make some sense, being as they're pseudo-mystical rogues. I could easily see them replacing the Rogue class, being all about stealth, movement, and "walking in the spirit world." You'd have to deal with Sudden Strike as you'd deal with Sneak Attack, though.
Duskblades make sense in the same way Hexblades do, but I'd argue that Hexblades do what they do better, and don't come with elfy trappings hooked into it.
Beguilers I could see, especially amongst the more haughty of those who serve the Gray Lady. And the Many is all about deception...

Magics
I'd be wary of taking anything from alternate magic systems. Wee Jas pretty much has a lock on the magic in your world so far, and anything that takes it out of her hands is something that's going to be jealously guarded. Unless you want a "secret magic of the ancients" to exist, I'd basically act as if the likes of Incarnum, Tome of Magic, Dragon Shamans, even the Tome of Battle, etc. weren't really present.

As far as races go, I'd mostly consider Humans vs. Goblinoids. You may want to add in dwarves and elves on the side of the Humans; halflings and gnomes could go against the grain unless you change their flavor. I'd strongly recommend going with Eberron's elves with their undead-worshipping ways, as inspiration, and the dwarves should be battle-hardened and scarred, creatures that have seen much horror. The problem could be that these races are usually fairly long-lived, which means that Wee Jas can't do her undead thing on them as often.

On Erythnul's side, goblinoids and orcs are the famous creatures precious to him, so I'd play up the "faceless green hordes" angle pretty well. Make them horrific and overwhelming, like the zombies out of Dawn of the Dead -- knock one down and three more rush in to fill it's place in rank. They eat you, desecrate your corpse (which would be horrific for anyone hoping to return to unlife), they have no compassion, no logic, only the driving need from their honored god to overwhelm, kill, and make many, many more. Toss in a few abberations, and you probably have a pretty stellar enemy force....with the cold hand of Wee Jas being the only thing stopping them from obliterating you.

 

[gribble]

I'll give an alternate view of how the classes could go.

I like this take on a very cool idea. One thing I'd disagree with though is that Tome of Battle would work really well. The example crusader is (I'm pretty sure) a crusader of Erythnul, and there is a PrC in there - Ruby Knight of Wee Jas!

I'd probably limit warblades & sword sages though (although perhaps sword sages would work as well as monks).

 

[I'm A Banana]

I like this take on a very cool idea. One thing I'd disagree with though is that Tome of Battle would work really well. The example crusader is (I'm pretty sure) a crusader of Erythnul, and there is a PrC in there - Ruby Knight of Wee Jas!

I think I may just be biased against the Crusader's "random selection of abilities" mechanic. Still, it's a good point, the Nine Swords could have some useful stuff in it.

Plus, I guess I see Wee Jas as not that interested in military might, though there might not be much of a reason for that.

 

[Particle_Man]

I think I may just be biased against the Crusader's "random selection of abilities" mechanic.

Think of it as "random from the Crusader's pov" as opposed to "random from Wee Jas's pov" and it works better. Deities work in mysterious ways...

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think you're making a big assumption about the way Wee Jas would be presented to the people in such a setting. If there never were any gods other than her and Erythnul, and monotheistic Wee Jas worship has been the status quo for generations, then I expect her church wouldn't seem any worse to the ordinary people of that world than the Catholic church did to the average serf in the Dark Ages.

The church that promised the peasants a better life in the hereafter and had agents in this world who (in varying degrees) tried to make life better now? Peasants got something out of the church (and other religions) in the real world.

Hell, look at what they've got to live with: A powerful, civilized (if rather harsh) Lawful organization that heals their wounds and can defend them (or keep them in line) with magic and a little bit of institutional undeadery . . . and a wilderness full of blood-drinking, sheep-buggering, Chaotic-or-Evil-or-both cults. I think most folks would hand over a nice fat tithe to the Dark-Eyed Lady's holy zombies and count themselves lucky.

I think most people would be looking behind Door Number Three. I cannot imagine realistic ordinary people who would be true believers in the two gods in this setting.

 

[Turanil]

I was just kicking around this idea. It would be a two-god world but portrayed internally as a monotheistic world and a ton of "demonic cults". Wee Jas is strick but seen as the only game in town, all the various demonic cults as heresies to be stamped out, etc. No one would worship Erythnul as such.

The official church would always be lawful but could have enlightened or corrupt members. The cults could have member that vary from CN to CE to NE.

Any thoughts that spark off of this idea?

I like this idea very much. Along with Nyarcus suggestions I would like to play in such a campaign actually. Very cool.

 

[Nyaricus]

I'll give an alternate view of how the classes could go.

Cool Options are always good; I'll leave a few comments since it's earlier in the day now, and my brain isn't as hazy as it was last night

Barbarian: These guys are *perfect* for Erythnul's most common thugs, and I'd really hope to see barbarians thundering in against waves of undead in my head.

I completely agree with you here The totem barbarians from UA also many it great for demon/aberration cults, and you can make tons of crazy alternate classes using this method.

Bard: Eh...you could ditch 'em. This sounds like a very grim campaign, and bards kind of fly in the face of that. Of course, you could ALSO re-interpret them as "dirge singers" and alter their song powers to affect only undead, making them potent allies of Wee Jas (you'd probably want to change the alignment to Lawful rather than Any Nonlawful), or have them be relegated to "scream singers" that worship slaughter and evil and sing maddening hymns that drive those who hear them insane.

That could work, but I just figured you'd have to change bards so much from RAW that it'd be more work than not - so you might as well disallow them. However, Heroes of Horror and Libris Mortis both have some great feats and prestigue classes which really up the terror aspect of bards. I dunno how'd you manage it, but those are some good point, IMO.

Cleric: They shouldn't need a whole lot of changing...do you really *need* every domain to be available? I'd say no. Work with what you have...the clerics of this world who can heal a bunch are in the minority. Which certainly works for the feel of a grim world...the cleric can't raise you from the dead, though they could turn you into an eternal servant.

My thoughts exactly. Just like if you want to run a Hyborian game where magic is rare, you need to keep the feel of the game going. Sure, RAW D&D is balanced against a certain expectation - but that expectation is thrown out the window when you get into a heavily modified and differnet campaign such as the one being expressed in this thread.

Druid: I can only see these guys as beholden to the Many. You could have villainous druids working at many turns in the setting. I can't really see Wee Jas as being interested in either life or nature...though perhaps she'd have Spirit Shamans.

Actually, given some more thought, the whole shapechange aspect of Druids works really well, and can be easily changed to aberrations! Call druids Changers instead, and rework their abilities to reflect the amorphous aberrations they take after. I think I am going to star a thread on this, in fact

Fighter: Yeah, they're normal.

Oh yeah

Monk: I think these guys fit the model of austerity that Wee Jas demands very well. The Many has his berserkers, the Gray Lady has her monks, and I could see many of them coming into contact. You may want to consider the "transformation" at 20th level to turn the monk into an Undead creature rather than an Outsider, if you're going to use the "Wee Jas doesn't use Outsiders" perspective.

My take on this was twofold: (A) First off, both factions should have, in a perfect world, equal numbers of "Wee Jas Only" and "Ery Only" classes. Also, Ery is the god of slaughter, so he should have more militant classes, and Wee Jas should have more arcane-focused classes. Thus,

Cloistered Cleric (UA) == Cleric (PHB) [two priest classes]
Paladin of Tyranny (UA) == Paladin of Slaughter (UA) [two knight classes]
Dread Necromancer (HoH) == Totem Barbarian (UA) [arcane/undead vs slaughter]
Archivist (HoH) == Warlock (ComArc) [two different approaches to magic]
Hexblade (ComWar) == Hexblade (ComWar) [fits both sides]

So, I don't really think the monk fits in there, for that reason, but also that I just don't see the monk meshing well with the other classes (later you do make a good point for the ninja, but I'll get to that ).

Paladin: You could loose them; I don't see the setting benefitting that much from having noble nights. Indeed, paladins could work against the feel you're going for.

The alternate ones in UA are where it's at, but the core Pally is right outta there.

Ranger: Like the Druids, I can really only see these as beholden to the Many....ranger/assassins can be deadly wildnerness encounters, though!

While, yes, I could see the rangers being a tool of The Many, I could also see there in a more tolkienesque role of trying to keep the darkness contained in this dark world, simply trying to keep basic lines of communication and trade open. I could also see them as Aberration and demon slayers, OTOH. That's why I just kinda kept this class 'neutral' or "pick your own side", like the fighter or rogue.

Rogue: As per standard, no changes really needed. You may want to bring to bear that their Sneak Attack doesn't work against undead...you may want to change that (such as offering a feat that allows it to work), give them another class option (check out UA), or just note that the rogues are mostly agents of Wee Jas who fight living disciples of slaughter, and the servants of the Many rarely employ them (because they'd be useless with regards to the undead armies)/

Good point on them being immune to undead; luckily I was in a thread in HR a while back and we came up with a good feat for rogues to take to get Sneak Attack damage. Here's the link

Sorcerer: Not sure how you're going to want to do dragons, if at all, in your world, but high-Cha spellcasters certainly fit a vain goddess well, and without bards, Sorcs will be the only dogs in town. It would entirely be appropriate for them to be "consorts of the Gray Lady," or just her offspring, living in the world. Of course, The Many would have his own sorcerous agents (I certainly can't see him using many Wizards!)

I dunno about that... Sorcerers just don't seem right for the Gray Lady; she would be the goddes of magic and thus the classical 'bookish' wizard seems to fit moreso with that theme, and the 'wild' sorcerer moreso with Ery. JMHO< but that's how I'd see it.

Wizard: Wizards are a must for the servants of the Gray Lady, of course. Necromancers will be common, and you may want to give Heroes of Horror a look for the Dread Necromancer. Erythnul probably shouldn't have many of those....

None at all, IMO. The Warlock, however, would hold a good niche in place of wizards (and, if you decide to include sorcerers, then them right alongside the warlocks).

Psionics
Because you're already using a goddess of magic, I'd steer away from psionics because they'd dilute the potency of the goddess. You could employ them as Erythnul's chosen mages to give the two a very distinct difference in style, but it's probably not nessecary to give Erythnul chosen mages beyond Sorcs.

I agree; psionics wouldn't fit the theme of this campaign, and it's inclusion would be a bit redundant.

Hexblades (CW) can have a role, because they are mostly-martial classes with a bit of arcane kick thrown in, which is a perfect replacement for "Paladins of Wee Jas." In fact, Hexblades work PERFECTLY as a replacement for paladins in this campaign, being more atmospheric and with less baggage.

I think that, alongside the PoS and PoT, Hexblades would be a great addition to both factions

Spirit Shamans (CD) work well because of the preponderance of "undead spirits" in the world. They could easily replace druids in the campaign, talking to ghosts instead of talking to squirrels.

And, if you go with my proposed Shaper class, they fit a good niche on an opposing side of that class

Warlocks are probably a good addition for the worshippers of the Many, and they could work as a replacement for Sorcerers for the "Lady's Favor" spellcasters. They're creepy and they're cooky, so they fit the world well.

I think, what with their "must be chaotic or evil' prereq, they are a perfect match for The Many

Warmages might be a good addition on the Wee Jas side -- an ordered reigment dedicated to magic fits her fancy just fine.

Warmages might work, but the battle sorcerer fits it better. Personally, I wouldn't have either as they're both a bit too flashy, IMO.

Spellthieves would make sense as Erythnul's servants, stealing from the Lady and giving it to their own patron. However, they're flighty flavor text may go against the feel of the game if you want it grim.

My thoughts too, though I didn consider them for a second. Just oen though

Ninja actually make some sense, being as they're pseudo-mystical rogues. I could easily see them replacing the Rogue class, being all about stealth, movement, and "walking in the spirit world." You'd have to deal with Sudden Strike as you'd deal with Sneak Attack, though.

Actually, the moe I read this, the more I like it It makes sense, and they don't have to be on any one side. Great point, KM

Duskblades make sense in the same way Hexblades do, but I'd argue that Hexblades do what they do better, and don't come with elfy trappings hooked into it.

Their spell list is where it sucks the most, IMO - it's (again, but I did warn in my other post that there were many like this) too flashy. Heck, I even considered the dragon shaman for a bit, but it just felt like it went too 'against the grain'.

Beguilers I could see, especially amongst the more haughty of those who serve the Gray Lady. And the Many is all about deception...

Yeah, I could see this too. I kinda kept them Neutral before, but there could be agents for either side which would be beguilers

In any case, some good considerations KM; mostly we have quite a few good ideas, IMO. Now, off to start that Shaper class, since my fancy has struck

cheers,
--N

P.S. Thanks Turanil for the props

 

[Particle_Man]

I think most people would be looking behind Door Number Three. I cannot imagine realistic ordinary people who would be true believers in the two gods in this setting.

Except that I would rig the deck, so that the *only* sources of divine magic were the two gods in question. So if a third "religion" sprung up, then either: a) It would be, unknown to its followers, a face of the Many, b) It would not grant divine spells. If (b), then this would soon become fairly apparent, although one might be able to fake something up with the bluff skill and certain arcane spells. I might make things harder and remove bards, so that the only source of healing would be Wee Jas clerics. Perhaps a bluff could be run with a Rogue/Beguiler "Priest" with UMD and a wand of cure light wounds, but it would be a bluff.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Well, it doesn't need to be a "real" religion to have the peasants believe in it. In our world, people believe in things all the time without proof -- it's the essence of faith.

Believing in something other than an oppressive authority or a crazed danger isn't so much a theological need as it is meeting an emotional need. Even if the WJ folks take care of the peasantry (if nothing else, healthy bodies provide more useful undead later on), the emotional needs are going unmet. There's also a need for a moral code that makes sense of the world beyond a purely utilitarian standpoint, which neither cult is going to do.

Now, it could be that the peasantry will embrace a saint of Wee Jas' faith who cared about the little people (which raises the possibility that he or she might grant spells via Wee Jas) or they'll invent something out of whole cloth.

But while the movers and shakers of the world will have their needs met (and their power bolstered by) the two dominant faiths, the little people will need something else, whether it's a philosophy, a splinter of one of the dominant faiths, superstition, a third party (a belief in the "Good People" fey or something) or something else.

Heck, this can probably be below the radar of the player characters, unless they go looking for it, but it's the sort of thing that might lead to interesting adventures, where they see the dominant faiths (both of them) persecuting the little people for believing in a (possibly imaginary) rival third choice that speaks to their needs.

 

[Nyaricus]

Here's that alternate druid class I was talking about:

The Changer of Erythnul

Hope that helps out

cheers,
--N