D&D General What if the Blood War ended? (Possible Outcomes Discussion)

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
Okay, so this thread, if people wish to participate, will be discussing what would happen to the Forgotten Realms world of Toril if the Blood War were to end. There are multiple ways for this to end, but here are the 3 main outcomes that could cause this to come about:
  1. The Demons win the Blood War, and the Devils are dead/out of the picture in someway.
  2. The Devils win the Blood War, and the Demons are dead/out of the picture in some way.
  3. The Demons and Devils lose the Blood War, and they are both dead/out of the picture in some way.
  4. The Demons and Devils both settle their differences (somehow) and unite together to destroy all Celestials.
There are probably multiple ways for this to happen, and the fallout of this will be very complicated depending on the events that lead up to this, but here are a few possible ways for the world to be changed due to this, with each listed possible sequence events correlating to the listed possible ends above. These are my own interpretations of what could happen, and you should feel free to post your version of these events below:
  1. The Demons over-run the Nine Hells, killing all the Devils and somehow getting rid of Asmodeus (banishing him, killing him, or otherwise), then go to the Material Plane and start destroying things. The Celestials aren't powerful enough to kill them, so they destroy the Abyss, and separate the Outer Planes from the Inner Planes, causing planar travel from the Outer Planes and Astral Plane to the Inner Planes, Material Plane, and Ethereal Plane to not work, and be restricted. Most of the Material Plane is destroyed, with the Demons setting up base in the Underdark, and wizards having to protect humanity from utter destructing.
  2. The Devils destroy/banish the Abyss, getting rid of Demons. They then have no real competition in the Lower Planes, and start conquering the Lower Planes. The Celestials are in a tough spot, and don't want the Devils to conquer the Multiverse, but also are glad the Demons are gone. They make an agreement/treaty with the Devils, saying that the Devils get the Lower Planes, the Celestials get the Upper Planes, and the Inner Planes (and Material Plane) are not to be directly interfered with. The Devils then conquer the Lower Planes, banishing Gruumsh and the Orc gods, and Maglubiet and the Goblin gods to Carceri. They then take over Mechanus, with Asmodeus pulling an Orcus (killing Primus, taking his place as leader of the Modrons), and the Celestials freak out. The claim the Devils violated the contract, the Devils tell them that they didn't. The Angels then attack Mechanus, trying to reclaim it so a new Primus can be created, and they fail with the seemingly endless army of the modrons keeping them back, with the Celestials breaking the contract. The Devils then attack the Upper Planes while the Celestials are weak, taking Mount Celestia, and forcing the remaining gods and celestials to the Material Plane, where they then ward off the Inner Planes and Material Plane and Realmspace from outside travel, with the gods having to give their lives for this great feat of magic. The Devils have the Outer Planes, the gods are dead, and the world is cut off from the outer planes.
  3. The Celestials destroy/banish the Demons and Devils from the Multiverse in some way (which is very unlikely to happen), making them not a problem anymore. They then become the planar police, and banish the Goblin and Orc gods to Carceri or elsewhere, so their war won't effect anyone the way the Blood War did. Fiends are now not that large of a problem, with Yugoloths as the prime fiends of the multiverse, as well as hags. Orcs, Goblins, and Drow no longer have to worship their evil deities, and become free peoples. Whether the other races accept them is dependent on the execution of the events.
  4. The Demons and Devils work together, with the Yugoloths, to form a massive army against the Celestials. They then "march" through the Astral Plane, coming to the Upper Planes, and just annihilating all of the Celestials. They kill the angels, empyreans, hollyphants, archons, and so on, until there are only the gods left. Tiamat aids the army, now free from Avernus, and kills Bahamut with the help of a demon lord or two, Asmodeus kills more gods, who eventually flee the Great Wheel, creating a shield around it to make it so no one else can follow them. The fiends then win all of the outer planes, and they're split in 3, with the devils taking the lawful planes, the demons taking the chaotic planes (including elemental chaos), and the yugoloths taking the elemental and neutral planes. They share the Material Plane, ridding the world of good, and found a new world based on cults to them (The Blood War may or may not restart at some point).
Okay, that's what I've got. I have more laid out for the first two possible versions of Toril, but I don't have a ton for the 3rd. What are your opinions on this? Would you do it differently? Is there anything I got wrong? Feel free to discuss below, add upon what is being discussed, and so on.

My final question before opening this thread is this: What do you think these different worlds would look like 1,000 years in the future, in your versions of events, or anyone else's? When answering this, keep in mind Firearms, Spelljammer, and possible changes to the races.

(I may add posts below with my answer to this last question, but I'll let you do so first.)

Thanks, and please comment below!

Edit: Added scenario 4.
 
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Well, first, I'd say that far more worlds in the material plane would be effected than just Toril, but I'm used to being forced to care about Faerun at this point and to focus on just that point would be kind of petty.

...minor gripe aside, I'd imagine the changes to the material plane would largely depend on the circumstances of how each version of the events went down. In each option a campaign would likely feature any fiends or mortals aligned with them trying to "bring back the banished/cut off" fiends into play. Honestly my favorite to use for a set up would be option three and have the celestials largely freaking out about mortals. Diablo 3's expansion touches on how such a concept would work, with a rogue angel going mad and being convinced that things were "better" when there was a clear enemy to fight, and thus try to bring back the demons/devils, or alternatively the celestials as a whole become much more zealous about what they consider "evil". I mean without devils or demons to set the standard who's to say they wouldn't look at mortals and go "yeah, that free will thing you have? Not gonna fly with us if you there is even a chance you might use it for evil, so we're gonna kill or conquer you now, for your own good, honest!" I bring all this up because in almost each scenario except the demons winning, there is a strong chance of mortals being forced to fight an unending war against immortal outsiders, the question then (aside from if said foe has feathers and glows or if they are sadistic, red, and leathery) is can they win or is losing an inevitability, especially if either scenario the gods are dead.

If they can't? Society is now whatever dystopian thing their oppressors allow, and if they can or if for some reason they are held at bay long enough/indefinitely, society will either end up progressing ever vigilant about their foe, which would largely shape things, or more realistically the common folk would forget such creatures are even real. After all we know that angels, demons, and fairies are all just made up in games and myths, right? Clearly they aren't actually real!

Related point: I now want to run a game with such a scenario having played out and the material plane being the cut off from the others with no one sure who won the blood war or what happened, only that it ended. Rumors that one day the protection provided by the ancient city located in the center of the world will one day fail and said evils shall return.

But nobody really believes all that, it's just bedtime tales meant to frighten children! Just like no one really believes that said city could've ever once flown through the sky, crashed into the ground one day, or that it "came from another dimension" as some versions of the legend say. I mean really, how could any city be big enough to have 1000 doors? And "Sigil"? Such a silly name!
 

I don't have the time for citations right now, but I'm fairly certain a few sources claim that certain individuals (including Graz'zt) actually intend for the Blood War to end with an alliance between all fiends to defeat the celestials.

4E lore at least holds that Asmodeus became a devil after one of the most ancient demon lords, Pazuzu, convinced Asmodeus to rebel against his god and take a piece of the Seed of Evil from the Heart of the Abyss to kill that god with. This theft ignited the Blood War. Pazuzu also is loyal to one of the most ancient and powerful demon lords, the Queen of Chaos.
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
A lot of it comes down to the Origin of Demons and Asmodeus's Original Purpose and Ultimate Plan.

There are different versions of each and it changes what happens if one side even appears to be winning.
 
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A lotofit comes down to the Origin of Demons and Asmodeus's Original Purpose and Ultimate Plan.

There are different versions of each and it changes what happens if one side even appears to be winning.

A lot of this is why in my personal head cannon I like to portray Asmodeus as rather than being the supremely evil arch fiend who seeks to conquer all of existence and more of the (still evil but) flamboyant ruler who seeks not to actually end the war, but maintain the current status quo for the rest of eternity. After all, the current system puts him in charge of all of the nine hells indefinitely as long as he can outwit all the other arch fiends (whom are all currently distracted either collecting him souls or fighting the blood war on his orders), and as long as the war continues he has mortals alive to torment and corrupt to relieve his boredom. He might have to replace an uppity Lord of one of the upper 8 layers every few millennia, or if the demons get lucky and take a layer, but otherwise it's a pretty sweet deal, why change it and risk getting dethroned or accidentally killing all the mortals? Think of him like a cosmic engineer, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Plus I find it personally amusing to interpret him as a surprisingly polite and nice guy that has no qualms with putting down anyone who's crossed him and make the only lie he's ever really told be the one he's told his generals: that he wants them to kill all the demons and conquer all of existence. Frankly the only thing he has no idea what he would do with is if he actually did rule all of existence, he'd be far too bored!
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
A lot of this is why in my personal head cannon I like to portray Asmodeus as rather than being the supremely evil arch fiend who seeks to conquer all of existence and more of the (still evil but) flamboyant ruler who seeks not to actually end the war, but maintain the current status quo for the rest of eternity. After all, the current system puts him in charge of all of the nine hells indefinitely as long as he can outwit all the other arch fiends (whom are all currently distracted either collecting him souls or fighting the blood war on his orders), and as long as the war continues he has mortals alive to torment and corrupt to relieve his boredom. He might have to replace an uppity Lord of one of the upper 8 layers every few millennia, or if the demons get lucky and take a layer, but otherwise it's a pretty sweet deal, why change it and risk getting dethroned or accidentally killing all the mortals? Think of him like a cosmic engineer, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Plus I find it personally amusing to interpret him as a surprisingly polite and nice guy that has no qualms with putting down anyone who's crossed him and make the only lie he's ever really told be the one he's told his generals: that he wants them to kill all the demons and conquer all of existence. Frankly the only thing he has no idea what he would do with is if he actually did rule all of existence, he'd be far too bored!

In my home setting, Asmodeus' end goal is to swap Heaven and Hell. He was to convince the Supreme Power that he should be in charge and have them turn the Nine Hells into a paradise. Then all the other gods andangels would be forced to serve him and Asmodeus can go after his true enemies... the GOOs and other high beings.

In this setting, the demons were created to keep the devils and celestials busy by an alliance of GOOs, Primordials, and other "pantheons". Demons are purely destructive because their creators wish to reset the world anyway.
 
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In my home setting, Asmodeus' end goal is to swap Heaven and Hell. He was to convince the Supreme Power that he should be in charge and have them turn the Nine Hells into a paradise. Then all the other gods andangels would be forced to serve him and Asmodeus can goafter his true enemies... the GOOs and other high beings.

In this setting, the demons were created to keep the devils and celestials busy by an alliance of GOOs, Primodials,and other "panteheons". Demons are purely destructive because their creators wish to reset the world anyway.

So I like the idea, but my brain is not quite functioning it seems due to insomnia... "GOOs"?
 



dave2008

Legend
OK
1) The Demons win the Blood War, and the Devils are dead/out of the picture in someway.
The demons are incredibly weak from the devastating war. The celestials and good gods martial support and their forces to wipe out the demons. The demons are nearly wiped out, but eventually some evil gods see them as an asset (and fearing they are next on the list), team up with the Yugoloths to repeal the celestial host. Eventually their is a stalemate and things go back to similar situation, just with evil gods more directly running the show. Some demons are eventual turned to lawful evil by such evil gods. recreating a lawful servant fiend similar to devils. Some of this might spill over the prime, but most of it occurs in the outer planes. The end result is that not much changes for Toril (maybe the loss of god here or there, the loss of devil contracts, etc.)

2) The Devils win the Blood War, and the Demons are dead/out of the picture in some way.
Same as option 1 really, with minor differences.

3) The Demons and Devils win the Blood War, and they are both dead/out of the picture in some way.
With the fall of demons and devils, the evil gods are freaked out! They quickly contract with the Yugoloths to release the primordials. With the primordials unshackled the gods and celestial host have to turn their efforts to that threat. While suppressing the primordials the evil gods of chaos recreate something like demons and the evil gods of order recreate something like devils. Assuming the gods suppress the primordials again, everything eventually goes back to a state similar to how it was before but greatly reduced as the multiverse has been devastated by the Great War. However, in this scenario Toril is probably completely wrecked, gone from the face of the multiverse.
 

squibbles

Adventurer
This isn't really an answer to the question you're asking, but I got a pretty strong impression from the fluff in MToF that the devils are losing--almost to a point that the Blood War is a story of desperation for them:

(from MToF)
Avernus—"Zariel rules over the ruin that Avernus has become. Once it was a bustling realm filled with cities, trade outposts, and other features, but recent activity in the Blood War has reduced it to a blasted wasteland."

Minauros—"The layer of Minauros teeters on the edge of ruin. The realm is a great swamp, interspersed with cities and fortresses that are in constant need of repair, upkeep, and replacement. Time and again, structures built on this layer are left untended and are eventually drawn into the bottomless muck of the swamp. Mammon refuses to spend any more coin than necessary to keep the soul marketplace in the Sinking City functioning."

Maladomini—"Maladomini was wracked with fighting as the other Lords of the Nine took to the field against the conspirator. The resulting devastation left much of the layer in ruins"

Stygia—"Stygia has become a war-wracked realm. Any devils bound to either of the archdevils that aren't needed for service in the Blood War engage in constant skirmishes across the ice, Every other layer of the Nine Hells has a function related to warfare, industry, administration, or commerce, but Stygia is an expanse of untamed, unimproved territory."

Cania—"Mephistopheles and his devotees prefer to conduct their studies in a wasteland where they can unleash gouts of arcane energy without destroying anything important. Experiments involving new spells, new magic items, and other innovations for the infernal arsenal regularly cause localized cataclysms in this place."

Nessus—"By design, the place is devoid of activity"

That's six out of nine layers which have been destroyed by armed conflict or neglect, or are basically empty of productive enterprise, with a clear implication that things in Baator used to be better but that the plane's hopeless leadership shows no sign of turning things around.

I don't see them winning.
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
If the Blood War to conceivably end, I don't think it actually would in any of the ways you're describing; the Blood War is explicitly designed so no force can win outright in conflict. The Devils are too organized to win; the Demons too numerous, and if any side gets an advantage, the Ultroloths or Celestials tip the scales to maintain balance.

That said, the only conceivable way I can see either side "winning" is by duplicity; meaning, it gains an advantage by seizing a completely different plane. Orcus has done this himself by replacing the Primus in Mechanus, and Vecna briefly achieved stalemate control of Sigil, and nearly gained complete control of the Multiverse.

This is the only way I could see a god like Asmodeus, or a demon god like Tharizdun, winning the Blood War; through unconventional and unprecedented means.

The biggest coup of all would be to infiltrate the Upper Planes, and use their forces to tilt the balance. It is well established that celestials are capable of corruption, and being manipulated.

Here's an idea;

1. Asmodeus/Tharizdun (these are the only two with the intelligence, will and power to control/destroy the multiverse on the Lawful/Chaotic sides) manipulate a powerful celestial, perhaps one of the Tome Archons (Raziel comes to mind) into thinking that the chaotic side of the Beastlands must be brought to heel, as it is a source of corruption among mortals.

2. Raziel leads an invasion across the upper planes; furious by this transgressions, the force of the Beastlands retaliate. This lapse of war across the upper planes weakens the defenses of Mount Celestia and other outer planes, allowing fiendish spies more access than they otherwise would attain.

3. Fiends perform a coup on the leadership of one of the upper planes, with celestial allies; arguing that the imposition of law/chaos is more important than morals.

4. An alliance between Mount Celestia/Baator is formed, or alternatively Arborea and Limbo (the Abyss seems like to big a jump for anyone really). After all, the devils were once fallen angels; perhaps the final destruction of demons will cleanse their souls.

5. The final war for the multiverse begins, with Asmodeus/Tharizdun pulling the strings to kill the gods and achieve the final control destruction of everything that exists.

Raziel
1595184859126.png
 

dave2008

Legend
If the Blood War to conceivably end, I don't think it actually would in any of the ways you're describing; the Blood War is explicitly designed so no force can win outright in conflict. The Devils are too organized to win; the Demons too numerous, and if any side gets an advantage, the Ultroloths or Celestials tip the scales to maintain balance.

That said, the only conceivable way I can see either side "winning" is by duplicity; meaning, it gains an advantage by seizing a completely different plane. Orcus has done this himself by replacing the Primus in Mechanus, and Vecna briefly achieved stalemate control of Sigil, and nearly gained complete control of the Multiverse.

This is the only way I could see a god like Asmodeus, or a demon god like Tharizdun, winning the Blood War; through unconventional and unprecedented means.

The biggest coup of all would be to infiltrate the Upper Planes, and use their forces to tilt the balance. It is well established that celestials are capable of corruption, and being manipulated.

Here's an idea;

1. Asmodeus/Tharizdun (these are the only two with the intelligence, will and power to control/destroy the multiverse on the Lawful/Chaotic sides) manipulate a powerful celestial, perhaps one of the Tome Archons (Raziel comes to mind) into thinking that the chaotic side of the Beastlands must be brought to heel, as it is a source of corruption among mortals.

2. Raziel leads an invasion across the upper planes; furious by this transgressions, the force of the Beastlands retaliate. This lapse of war across the upper planes weakens the defenses of Mount Celestia and other outer planes, allowing fiendish spies more access than they otherwise would attain.

3. Fiends perform a coup on the leadership of one of the upper planes, with celestial allies; arguing that the imposition of law/chaos is more important than morals.

4. An alliance between Mount Celestia/Baator is formed, or alternatively Arborea and Limbo (the Abyss seems like to big a jump for anyone really). After all, the devils were once fallen angels; perhaps the final destruction of demons will cleanse their souls.

5. The final war for the multiverse begins, with Asmodeus/Tharizdun pulling the strings to kill the gods and achieve the final control destruction of everything that exists.

Raziel
View attachment 123972
Or the opposite and the upper planes use the distraction of the blood war to wipe out the demons and the devils.
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
Or the opposite and the upper planes use the distraction of the blood war to wipe out the demons and the devils.

Also possible, though it's pretty well-established that most celestials think that actually defeating all evil is impossible. So you'd have to have them secretly preparing a "master plan" to defeat evil (again through manipulation, as outright force will never work).
 

dave2008

Legend
Also possible, though it's pretty well-established that most celestials think that actually defeating all evil is impossible. So you'd have to have them secretly preparing a "master plan" to defeat evil (again through manipulation, as outright force will never work).
Defeating demons and devils is not the same things as defeating all evil.
 

Well, first, I'd say that far more worlds in the material plane would be effected than just Toril, but I'm used to being forced to care about Faerun at this point and to focus on just that point would be kind of petty.

Isnt that kind of the whole point of the Blood War is that it touches all ( or most) planes in some way shape or form, limiting it to just the planes and Toril kind of defeats the purpose?

I always wanted the Yuggoloth to win personally.
 

Planescape stated that if the Blood War ended with there being peace between the sides with the Yugoloths in charge, it would be Armageddon with a unified Fiendish army attacking the Upper Planes. The already unified Celestial armies wouldn't stand a chance against the now unified Fiendish armies that outnumber them.
 

cbwjm

Legend
Planescape stated that if the Blood War ended with there being peace between the sides with the Yugoloths in charge, it would be Armageddon with a unified Fiendish army attacking the Upper Planes. The already unified Celestial armies wouldn't stand a chance against the now unified Fiendish armies that outnumber them.
I think a lot of neutral forces would side with the celestials in order to maintain the balance, leading to a new blood war between the upper/neutral planes and the lower planes
 


SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
Related point: I now want to run a game with such a scenario having played out and the material plane being the cut off from the others with no one sure who won the blood war or what happened, only that it ended. Rumors that one day the protection provided by the ancient city located in the center of the world will one day fail and said evils shall return.

But nobody really believes all that, it's just bedtime tales meant to frighten children! Just like no one really believes that said city could've ever once flown through the sky, crashed into the ground one day, or that it "came from another dimension" as some versions of the legend say. I mean really, how could any city be big enough to have 1000 doors? And "Sigil"? Such a silly name!
Fascinating idea, well described!
 

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