D&D General What if the Blood War ended? (Possible Outcomes Discussion)

I think a lot of neutral forces would side with the celestials in order to maintain the balance, leading to a new blood war between the upper/neutral planes and the lower planes
The Neutral forces are the Modrons, Slaadi and Rilmani. Modrons and Slaadi (and the pre-Slaadi precursors) don't get along with each other. The Rilmani do have an army but have to rely on covert actions to keep the balance.

The idea of there being an Armageddon that the Celestials can't win is also something that many Celestials believe in. It's why a bunch of them covertly do what they can to keep the Blood War going for all eternity.
 

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cbwjm

Legend
The Neutral forces are the Modrons, Slaadi and Rilmani. Modrons and Slaadi (and the pre-Slaadi precursors) don't get along with each other. The Rilmani do have an army but have to rely on covert actions to keep the balance.

The idea of there being an Armageddon that the Celestials can't win is also something that many Celestials believe in. It's why a bunch of them covertly do what they can to keep the Blood War going for all eternity.
That's the same problem with the fiends though, demons and devils can't work together but if we do allow that scenario then I think allowing a scenario where the neutral forces join together is reasonable.

I also don't think it would just be the higher echelons of good/neutral beings. You'd also have bauriar and formians (whoever those insect people are on the outer planes), the gith races might also join in, not sure if githyanki would side with or against the fiends, depends on whether they feel their independence would be assured. The war would be a massive planar scouring event, ostensible upper vs lower planes but others would be dragged in to it, and i think most would side with the upper planes out of fear of what would become of them if this combined fiendish army won the war. As is, I think it is likely that any lower planar coalition would collapse before they won.
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
Well, first, I'd say that far more worlds in the material plane would be effected than just Toril, but I'm used to being forced to care about Faerun at this point and to focus on just that point would be kind of petty.
Yeah, I know it would effect more than just Toril, but that's the main setting of 5e, and this thread needs to be specific to one setting, or it'd fairly quickly become impossible to discuss. Thanks for participating, and great post!
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
This isn't really an answer to the question you're asking, but I got a pretty strong impression from the fluff in MToF that the devils are losing--almost to a point that the Blood War is a story of desperation for them:

(from MToF)
Avernus—"Zariel rules over the ruin that Avernus has become. Once it was a bustling realm filled with cities, trade outposts, and other features, but recent activity in the Blood War has reduced it to a blasted wasteland."

Minauros—"The layer of Minauros teeters on the edge of ruin. The realm is a great swamp, interspersed with cities and fortresses that are in constant need of repair, upkeep, and replacement. Time and again, structures built on this layer are left untended and are eventually drawn into the bottomless muck of the swamp. Mammon refuses to spend any more coin than necessary to keep the soul marketplace in the Sinking City functioning."

Maladomini—"Maladomini was wracked with fighting as the other Lords of the Nine took to the field against the conspirator. The resulting devastation left much of the layer in ruins"

Stygia—"Stygia has become a war-wracked realm. Any devils bound to either of the archdevils that aren't needed for service in the Blood War engage in constant skirmishes across the ice, Every other layer of the Nine Hells has a function related to warfare, industry, administration, or commerce, but Stygia is an expanse of untamed, unimproved territory."

Cania—"Mephistopheles and his devotees prefer to conduct their studies in a wasteland where they can unleash gouts of arcane energy without destroying anything important. Experiments involving new spells, new magic items, and other innovations for the infernal arsenal regularly cause localized cataclysms in this place."

Nessus—"By design, the place is devoid of activity"

That's six out of nine layers which have been destroyed by armed conflict or neglect, or are basically empty of productive enterprise, with a clear implication that things in Baator used to be better but that the plane's hopeless leadership shows no sign of turning things around.

I don't see them winning.
It would definitely take some crazy circumstances for it to happen, but this thread is to discuss the outcomes of those crazy things. How it happens isn't really important, as long as it does happen. What follows a side winning or losing is more important.
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
Defeating demons and devils is not the same things as defeating all evil.

In the eyes of the Celestials, it would be (if you throw in Ultroloths). Fiends are the representation of evil in the Outer Planes; if you destroy the very thing that represents evil, you have in effect triumphed over evil itself.

Of course, I think most Celestials know that this is not actually possible, because fiends are a reflection of mortals; so if you destroy all fiends, something new, and potentially worse, could take their place.

So Celestials do their best to simply maintain the Blood War instead of having delusions of triumphing over them, something they admit cannot succeed in the long run. They are well aware that of the balance of the multiverse and know they're apart of it.

Celestials seem to understand that they must fight as hard as they can to redeem souls and maintain good ones, and that any lapse in their vigilance will be exploited by the fiends, and tilt the balance in evil's favor. Final victory is not possible, but the struggle itself for every worthy soul is a righteous one that must be done.

Fiends on the other hand do dream of overthrowing the multiversal order. It is only due to their inability to work with each other, and the strength/cunning of the Celestials, that they do not succeed.
 

Coroc

Hero
If the Blood War to conceivably end, I don't think it actually would in any of the ways you're describing; the Blood War is explicitly designed so no force can win outright in conflict. The Devils are too organized to win; the Demons too numerous, and if any side gets an advantage, the Ultroloths or Celestials tip the scales to maintain balance.
...

This.

The whole discussion is pretty hypothetical from an "official lore" POV.

I would go even further: If you take out the essence of one of the corner alignments,

e.g.: devils loses = no strong aspect of LE anymore in the planes, then this would afflict the whole multiverse. In the primes LE Humanoids would turn LN or NE making them stronger or destroying themselves. The whole alignment system would take a big shift to chaotic good.

Neutrality would not work anymore like it did before, and give creatures which by nature have N alignment a chaotic good alignment suddenly. So nature / animals, plants and druids e.g would get strong CG aspects. No balance anymore.
For me this seems a highly undesirable situation. Eventually good and neutral aligned deities would even be forced to intervene if one side ever is short before winning the blood war.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Okay but what if a band of heroes murder Asmodeus and cleanse Hell, while another shunts the Abyss deep into the Far Realm, all after giving a the Good gods the key to sealing the Far Realm more tightly from our reality?

The “neutral” fiends aren’t powerful enough to stand against the celestials, and they wouldn’t stand united, regardless.

I figure demons and devils are simply replaced by evil gods and their servants, but for a couple hundred years the multiverse is simply a safer place.

If only half of that task can be completed, and one side or the other remains, I think the forces of good would just come up with a way to quickly turn willing mortal souls into new celestials, and give mass blessings to heroes of the mortal races making armies of PC class leveled heroes, and the New Blood War would be an epic 1-20 campaign AP just to get to a place where the Multiverse isn’t in immediate existential danger.
 

As is, I think it is likely that any lower planar coalition would collapse before they won.
The only outcome where the Upper Planes still survives is the the Lower Planes turns on each other and starts the Blood War again. It has been suggested that Armageddon happened before, and the only thing that saved the Upper Planes were the Fiends turning on each other and starting the Blood War the first time.

If Armageddon was in the distant past, and would happen again in the future, then it's the Unity of Rings which is one of the central themes of Planescape.
 

dave2008

Legend
In the eyes of the Celestials, it would be (if you throw in Ultroloths). Fiends are the representation of evil in the Outer Planes; if you destroy the very thing that represents evil, you have in effect triumphed over evil itself.
I don't think of Celestials as being so foolish.

Regardless there a plenty of evil things that are not devils and demons. Including many evil gods that are more powerful than demons and devils. IMO, demons and devils are not the source of evil, but merely its most obvious manifestation or as you said its representation.
 

dave2008

Legend
The only outcome where the Upper Planes still survives is the the Lower Planes turns on each other and starts the Blood War again. It has been suggested that Armageddon happened before, and the only thing that saved the Upper Planes were the Fiends turning on each other and starting the Blood War the first time.

If Armageddon was in the distant past, and would happen again in the future, then it's the Unity of Rings which is one of the central themes of Planescape.
Or the stories and beliefs could just be wrong. I find the idea that the lower planes are so vastly more powerful than the upper planes just insulting. Definitely not my vision of the multiverse.
 
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Or the stories and beliefs could just be wrong. I find the idea that the lower planes are so vastly more power than the upper planes just insulting. Definitely not my vision of the multiverse.
All Celestials except for Quesars (which are constructs) come from souls, for Fiends some come from souls and some are spontaneously created from the Lower Planes themselves. 2e often had the idea that Good was a hard thing to do or be, but Evil was easy and this reflects that idea.

But perhaps the most important idea outside anything in the Planescape setting, and also something that is probably 2e but could have carried over in later editions: is the idea that if the Celestials were powerful enough to vanquish all Fiends, why would there ever be a need for any Heroes like the Player Characters?
 

dave2008

Legend
But perhaps the most important idea outside anything in the Planescape setting, and also something that is probably 2e but could have carried over in later editions: is the idea that if the Celestials were powerful enough to vanquish all Fiends, why would there ever be a need for any Heroes like the Player Characters?
I never said the celestials were powerful enough to vanquish all fiends. I just insinuated they should be similar in power (in total) to all the fiends. I said the fiends shouldn't be "vastly more powerful" than the celestials. So there is still a place for heroes to stop fiends from gaining the upper hand and also to thwart evil mortal followers of the fiends and other evil outsiders.
 

jgsugden

Legend
In my setting, the Gods created Angels, Asmodeus broke off the Angels and created Devils (and rose to Godhood) and then the Far Realm collided with the Primary Planes, resulting in Lawful Devils becoming Chaotic Demons. Since then, the Demons have attempted to assault the 9 Hells to gain control of Nessus for some unexplained reason. While mortals describe him as a Diabolic figure (literally), he has always explained himself as someone that seeks only just compensation for all he and his Devils do to safeguard the Planes from the Demonic threat. As all others owe him their very existence, that is the compensation he expects to be paid - all of existence.

If the Demons were to battle through the Nine Hells, reach Nessus and wrest control from Asmodeus, he claims all of existence would end.

If the Devils were to exterminate all of Demonkind, Asmodeus would turn his sights on collecting his just reward.

If both Demons and Devils were wiped from existence, and the Hells left empty, the Gods that reside there would capitalize upon the vacancy and replace these threats with new dangers to assault the mortal plane.
 

There's the legend, in that it was only brought up in one book outside of PS at the end of 2e and then outright ignored later on, is that Asmodeus really is the Persian/Zoroastrian God of Evil Ahriman/Angra Mainyu, and was banished by his counterpart Jazirian the God of Coatls (which I assume would make Jazirian the secret identity of Ahura Mazda). But that Zoroastrian backstory is one story how good and evil of the lawful side came to be.

I think there's a similar story for Chaos where all chaotic beings once were part of the forces of the Queen of Chaos including the Obyrith Demons and Planar Eladrin like Queen Morwel. But after that primal conflict some like Queen Morwel became Celestials, and others went to the Abyss.

There's a lot of contradictory stories out there about the planes, but many of them have some form of the truth.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
4. it is a draw. Now Hell Drill Sergants and Abyss Drill Sergants are trying to figure out how long they can make their troops do Police Call before they revolt. (Police call is picking up Litter).
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
There's the legend, in that it was only brought up in one book outside of PS at the end of 2e and then outright ignored later on, is that Asmodeus really is the Persian/Zoroastrian God of Evil Ahriman/Angra Mainyu, and was banished by his counterpart Jazirian the God of Coatls (which I assume would make Jazirian the secret identity of Ahura Mazda). But that Zoroastrian backstory is one story how good and evil of the lawful side came to be.

I think there's a similar story for Chaos where all chaotic beings once were part of the forces of the Queen of Chaos including the Obyrith Demons and Planar Eladrin like Queen Morwel. But after that primal conflict some like Queen Morwel became Celestials, and others went to the Abyss.

There's a lot of contradictory stories out there about the planes, but many of them have some form of the truth.
Yeah, I've heard that before, but a lot of the myths are contradictory. In any hypothetical scenario where one side wins, they find a way around the fact that Asmodeus may or may not be one of the gods that created the multiverse. They could banish the Nine Hells, separating it from the Great Wheel, or some other way of destroying it.
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
I don't have the time for citations right now, but I'm fairly certain a few sources claim that certain individuals (including Graz'zt) actually intend for the Blood War to end with an alliance between all fiends to defeat the celestials.

4E lore at least holds that Asmodeus became a devil after one of the most ancient demon lords, Pazuzu, convinced Asmodeus to rebel against his god and take a piece of the Seed of Evil from the Heart of the Abyss to kill that god with. This theft ignited the Blood War. Pazuzu also is loyal to one of the most ancient and powerful demon lords, the Queen of Chaos.
That could certainly be an option, I'll add that to the list of scenarios above.
Edit: Added to the OP. Now, there's a fourth scenario.
 
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AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
A lotofit comes down to the Origin of Demons and Asmodeus's Original Purpose and Ultimate Plan.
Yeah, but this more comes down to ignoring that, and saying what you think would happen for each scenario.
There are different versions of each and it changes what happens if one side even appears to be winning.
I'm sure there are hundreds of variants of each, and that's kind of the point of this thread. It'd be great if people could post their versions of each scenario.
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
1) The Demons win the Blood War, and the Devils are dead/out of the picture in someway.
The demons are incredibly weak from the devastating war. The celestials and good gods martial support and their forces to wipe out the demons. The demons are nearly wiped out, but eventually some evil gods see them as an asset (and fearing they are next on the list), team up with the Yugoloths to repeal the celestial host. Eventually their is a stalemate and things go back to similar situation, just with evil gods more directly running the show. Some demons are eventual turned to lawful evil by such evil gods. recreating a lawful servant fiend similar to devils. Some of this might spill over the prime, but most of it occurs in the outer planes. The end result is that not much changes for Toril (maybe the loss of god here or there, the loss of devil contracts, etc.)
Okay, so the Celestials win, mostly? I could see this happening, but it does depend on how weak they are from beating the devils.
2) The Devils win the Blood War, and the Demons are dead/out of the picture in some way.
Same as option 1 really, with minor differences.
Same as my above response, but with demons being destroyed.
3) The Demons and Devils win the Blood War, and they are both dead/out of the picture in some way.
With the fall of demons and devils, the evil gods are freaked out! They quickly contract with the Yugoloths to release the primordials. With the primordials unshackled the gods and celestial host have to turn their efforts to that threat. While suppressing the primordials the evil gods of chaos recreate something like demons and the evil gods of order recreate something like devils. Assuming the gods suppress the primordials again, everything eventually goes back to a state similar to how it was before but greatly reduced as the multiverse has been devastated by the Great War. However, in this scenario Toril is probably completely wrecked, gone from the face of the multiverse.
Aren't the Primordials imprisoned on Abeir by Ao? I'm just curious as to how they manage to do this. I like the idea of the evil gods freaking out, I might steal that, but their response in my version would probably be different.
 

dave2008

Legend
Okay, so the Celestials win, mostly? I could see this happening, but it does depend on how weak they are from beating the devils.
IMO, it is highly likely that the wining side would be servery weakened. I mean it has been a stalemate for all of these years, so they are clearly closely matched. I also take the approach that the celestials are basically as strong as the fiends. So it wouldn't take much of weakening of the fiends overall might for the gods and celestials to rush in and finish them off.

Aren't the Primordials imprisoned on Abeir by Ao? I'm just curious as to how they manage to do this. I like the idea of the evil gods freaking out, I might steal that, but their response in my version would probably be different.
I don't know what the FR canon for primordials. In my game they are imprisoned throughout the multiverse and the mightiest of them is two orders of Power greater than Ao.
 

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