What if undead had Constitution scores?

[SpuneDagr]

Would it really mess things up if undead had Con scores? My understanding is that there are some monsters in MM3 that use their Charisma for bonus hit points. Why not just give 'em a constitution?

They have bodies (most of them), some undead are tougher than others, the old PsiHB had undead psions use their Charisma for psychokinesis powers...

It seems to me that a lot of undead suffer from a lack of hp. They attempt to make up for it with lots of hit dice, but that tends to throw turning all out of whack.

Wouldn't it be simpler? What would suffer?

 

[Gez]

I'm thinking you could turn the "Living Construct" subtype into merely "Living", and apply it to (some) undead. Along with the Con score's bonus to hit points, it would give them vulnerability to sneak attacks and critical hits.

The only undead that would be really justified with having that is the vampire (and the vampire spawn). Since they can be killed by beheading, staked in the heart, etc. Their anatomy still has some meaning.

 

[Aaron L]

I'd say that all undead should get to use thier Charisma for hit points. But no Constitution. They are dead, after all.

 

[SpuneDagr]

I guess what I'm really trying to grasp here is the significance of having a Con score.

Constructs don't have one because their bodies are not controlled or limited by organs or sinew. Hacking half way through a golem's arm does not lessen its effectiveness.

Undead don't have Con scores for basically the same reason, but there are a number of these guys that don't fit the "construct" mold. Vampires, as Gez mentioned, have anatomical weaknesses. It's 3:30 in the morning, so no others are coming to mind.

Why do elementals have them? What's so fundamentally different between an earth elemental (a creature from the plane of Earth) and a stone golem (a stone body animated by the power of a spirit from the plane of Earth)? How is it that an elemental's body gets tougher but a nightwalker's does not?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It seems that the Stone Elemental has some kind of organismn or biological activity - not enough to hit them critically, but enough to give them some kind of "limited stamina" (Golems never tire in 3.5).
In fact, I think the whole nonability scores cause trouble most the time, and I would prefer giving most creatures their constitution or intelligence scores.

A reason for this problem might be that at some time in the design process, they decided that critical hits meant hits to vital organs, not just extraordinary lucky hits.
But in fact, even skeletons have vital "organs" - if you hack of their legs, they will fall down, if you hack of their arms, they can´t attack. Sure, they won´t be destroyed, but they are also unable to fight now.

The problem with changing the rules now is that it is difficult to do so without breaking game balance (sneak attacking skeletons?), and it would mean a lot of work. (What Consitution for what undead/golem?)

 

[Hand of Evil]

Shock, this is added to what crits mean to me, no not "oh my god" type of shock but trauma the mental shut down of function. It is not just the wound, it is your body and mind dealing with the wound, undead and such do not deal with this.

 

[Li Shenron]

I guess what I'm really trying to grasp here is the significance of having a Con score.

By the SRD, "Constitution represents your character’s health and stamina." A creature who is not alive shouldn't have constitution IMO because it doesn't have a health.

As you point out, Elementals still have a Con score; they don't breathe, eat or sleep, they share many immunities with undead and constructs (poison for example is something that requires the target to have a metabolism to affect it), but are still required to make fortitude saves to resist some other effects. They are indeed alive in their own way, but differently from other living things - for example they cannot be resurrected.

I have no idea if there's a reason behind all this, but eventually the result is that elementals are somewhat half-way between mortals and nonliving beings. It may be hard to accept... however it reminds me of when in old biology class the teacher explained that the limit between life and non-life is blurred in the real world as well, with viruses raising questions whether they should be considered living (unintelligent but still with a mockery of lifecycle) or not (they don't have a DNA on their own and resort on the host's DNA to replicate). Well, I supposed this had nothing to do with our case, just came to my mind

 

[Nightchilde-2]

Would it really mess things up if undead had Con scores? My understanding is that there are some monsters in MM3 that use their Charisma for bonus hit points. Why not just give 'em a constitution?

They have bodies (most of them), some undead are tougher than others, the old PsiHB had undead psions use their Charisma for psychokinesis powers...

It seems to me that a lot of undead suffer from a lack of hp. They attempt to make up for it with lots of hit dice, but that tends to throw turning all out of whack.

Wouldn't it be simpler? What would suffer?

Well, aside from hit points, remember that a lack of Con means the creature has no body or no metabolism (as is the case with undead). They are immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. They're immune to ability damage and drain, energy drain and automatically fail con checks. They don't tire, either.

This is the reason that elementals have Con scores, but undead and constructs don't. Elementals are vulnerable to effects that require Fort saves, aren't immune to ability damage, don't automatically fail Con checks and so on.

(note that the immunity to critical hits is not a function of not having a Con score)

So, no, giving an undead a Con score is very different than the Unholy Toughness special quality or basing things off of Charisma.

 

[Will]

Personally, I think all creatures should have all scores. Golem and vermin should have an Int score of 1 or something, rescaled to indicate very basic drives.

Golems, after all, can walk, can perceive things, and so forth. Yes, they have very limited things they can do, but I don't see them as 'less' than the simplest animals, just focused differently. Same with vermin.

Similarly, I think Constitution should represent health and hardiness, and handle living/unliving as a separate quality.

Undead should generally receive a +4 Con, have d8 HD (which works out to about the same as d12 HD but makes class HD more significant), but are still immune to Fort save effects that don't also affect objects.

At least, that's my view.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

IMO, - Con should have been made a function of incorporeality, like - Str. Zombie? Con. And probably critable. Skeleton? Con. No crits. Wraith? No Con. No crits.

Will's version of undead in general sounds about right, although the "+4 Con" thing initially confused me. Not a +4 bonus; a 14/15 stat.

I don't have a problem with the - Int, though. It represents entirely non-free-willed creatures that, essentially, operate off a fairly simple "program."