D&D 5E What IS a level 1 Fighter?

[Salthorae]

"A veteran who turns his skills with weapons toward adventuring"

can someone please attempt to convince me of this particular one even being plausible? It doesnt make any sense to me.

Go read the last 6 pages and come back. This has been tossed back and forth for most of it.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

I wouldn't necessarily say that they're "veterans," but obviously they've had significant training (proficient in all weapons). More than likely they're somewhere between a newb and a veteran... having been a hired thug, a militia member, or perhaps even a levy that never saw much combat.

This issue actually occurs for all classes, since most don't reach their archetype until level 2 or 3. Is a level 1 wizard still an apprentice, a new journeyman mage, or a full wizard? It doesn't help when WotC often refers to levels 1-2 (or 4) as the apprentice tier.

I somewhat solved this. Ive implemented it in 3 and 3.5. As a dm i simply ruled that pc's get 6 "ghost levels". These levels are non-pc class levels (minus little pieces of them) that players start out the game with and over time the hd from them (but nothing else) are replaced by hit die from pc class level hit die as they level in a class. Because clearly you werent sitting in a broom closet for years before you gained your pc class. There are multiple orientations of these levels that a given class can start out with at level 1. Not all possible combinations are viable for all classes. But there are plenty of combinations. The hd are replaced over a set course of numbers of levels which proceed in the following sequence of number of levels past:

1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3. At level ten the process is over.

They can be commoner levels or pieces of a template's or race's LA. In the case of the lattermost option one usually must have at least one "ghost level" explained through other means though.

 

[S'mon]

If I want level 1 PCs to feel tougher and more experienced I give them a hp kicker - start at hd + CON attribute rather than hd + CON bonus. Works very well, allows for slower 1-3 advancement and a generally better experience IME.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Lets look at a few examples:

(admittedly not a fighter) Bilbo Baggins in The Hobbit. 1st level rogue at the start of the story. He has no training in that department - he is basically one of the idle rich - but Gandalf spots an inherent aptitude. Later on in the story, after gaining a few levels, he is battling it out solo against giant spiders (who already took out all the trained fighters). There is no training montage, no mention of anyone teaching him which end to hold a sword. Gandalf is his mentor, but he doesn't teach any specific rogue skills.

Another example. Aliens. We have a ship full of highly trained professional soldiers, who get slaughtered, half of them in the space of few minutes. Who is it that goes in and defeats the enemy boss, duel wielding military grade weaponry? Ellen Ripley, a junior officer on a cargo ship with no military training.

In the universe of stories military experience don't mean jack.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

If I want level 1 PCs to feel tougher and more experienced I give them a hp kicker - start at hd + CON attribute rather than hd + CON bonus. Works very well, allows for slower 1-3 advancement and a generally better experience IME.

The extra hd dont count toward their hd total for any effects. They represent health (which is rolled for) but thats the extent of it. They are replaced as leveling occurs too and pc's may even lose health in the leveling process. Generally i attribute this to acclimating to a harder life of adventuring and retraining of their body to new skills. Usually they gain health though. The hd are replaced by real ones that do count toward a total for hd effects purposes over time.

The ghost levels include some skills and skill points as well as other features though and it goes a long way to realistically showing they were doing something before they became a pc class. It feels more organic.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The classic Hero's trope of farmboy to legend is not represented well by the D&D Fighter, and I would argue that has always been true, at least as long as I've been playing (2e AD&D start).

I would agree 100%.

Farmboy hero is a 0th level dude, and not really in D&D.

Lets look at a few examples:

(admittedly not a fighter) Bilbo Baggins in The Hobbit. 1st level rogue at the start of the story. He has no training in that department - he is basically one of the idle rich - but Gandalf spots an inherent aptitude. Later on in the story, after gaining a few levels, he is battling it out solo against giant spiders (who already took out all the trained fighters). There is no training montage, no mention of anyone teaching him which end to hold a sword. Gandalf is his mentor, but he doesn't teach any specific rogue skills.

Another example. Aliens. We have a ship full of highly trained professional soldiers, who get slaughtered, half of them in the space of few minutes. Who is it that goes in and defeats the enemy boss, duel wielding military grade weaponry? Ellen Ripley, a junior officer on a cargo ship with no military training.

In the universe of stories military experience don't mean jack.

And I can find dozens of examples where military experience is matters. You claim Bilbo is a "Rogue", but that's just a rubbish approximation. He possesses a fraction of the skills of the Rogue/Thief, seems to be missing Backstab, and his ability to fight with a sword is a PLOT HOLE, not something to be praised. A D&D Thief wasn't intended to be Bilbo Baggins, he was intended to The Grey Mouser, who does train, and practice with his weapons (except when he got old and fat and into teenage girls, but that was implied to be a bad thing).

Aliens is a very different kind of story to D&D, and D&D is completely incapable of replicating something like that, because a class-based system with a heavy reliance on proficiency is hard-incompatible with the story there, unless maybe Ripley was, like, way higher level than everyone else. But plenty of other RPGs would be fine with it. GURPS or Savage Worlds or even Cyberpunk 2020 would all handle it a hell of a lot better. So that doesn't really help your point.

And in the vast majority of fantasy novels, military training and combat experience is important, whether it's the Assassin trilogy by Robin Hobb, Game of Thrones by GRRM, Mary Gentle's Ash series, Glen Cook's Black Company series, arguably Stevenson's Malazan (but that is all over the place on this, at times it matters, at times magic means it doesn't), Joe Abercrombie's First Law-world books, or whatever. Military training isn't everything - often magic, or trickery the like beats it, but it's very important and the best fighters in these books are usually well-trained and/or extreme veterans. They sure aren't "farm boys".

What's particularly hilarious is that the classic "farm boy" everyone is obsessed with wouldn't even be a Fighter in D&D, he'd be a Psychic Warrior if he was a D&D class at all, because he had MASSIVE MAGICAL POWERS (Luke Skywalker that is), which are what made him so capable.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

If I want level 1 PCs to feel tougher and more experienced I give them a hp kicker - start at hd + CON attribute rather than hd + CON bonus. Works very well, allows for slower 1-3 advancement and a generally better experience IME.

I also dm with 1000 times the suggested amount of xp to gain a given level. This lengthens the level progression AND has the added benefit of giving me a lot more flexibility in how i can custom craft xp reward for a highly varied catalogue of what pc's can do which would gain xp other than just the monster killing. And it makes it easier for me to open up the joys of spending xp for some sort of gained advantage in game to classes like the fighter in ways other than crafting. Losing a level is also a much bigger blow too.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

And I can find dozens of examples where military experience is matters. You claim Bilbo is a "Rogue", but that's just a rubbish approximation. He possesses a fraction of the skills of the Rogue/Thief, seems to be missing Backstab, and his ability to fight with a sword is a PLOT HOLE, not something to be praised. A D&D Thief wasn't intended to be Bilbo Baggins, he was intended to The Grey Mouser, who does train, and practice with his weapons (except when he got old and fat and into teenage girls, but that was implied to be a bad thing).

The original D&D thief class was based on Bilbo. That's actually why it was called "thief" and not "rogue"- thief was a label specifically applied to Bilbo. And he is clearly sneak attacking those spiders. So no it is no, it's a 100% accurate approximation, by definition.

Grey Mouser is also an influence of course - and he did train - as a wizard, not a fighter or thief. In the original Deities & Demigods (of which I own a copy) The Grey Mouser is a multiclassed fighter/MU/thief.

Aliens is a very different kind of story to D&D, and D&D is completely incapable of replicating something like that, because a class-based system with a heavy reliance on proficiency is hard-incompatible with the story there, unless maybe Ripley was, like, way higher level than everyone else. But plenty of other RPGs would be fine with it. GURPS or Savage Worlds or even Cyberpunk 2020 would all handle it a hell of a lot better. So that doesn't really help your point.

Hmm, a group of heroes answer a call for help and find themselves in dark tunnels fighting monsters? Doesn't sound like not-D&D to me. The D&D proficiency system works perfectly well, once you accept that Ripley is a fighter and therefore has martial weapons proficiency, even though she has no military training. Sure, she is higher level than everyone else, she would be having survived the previous film. Class doesn't matter - parties that consist of mostly fighters are entirely possible in D&D and are common in fantasy literature of all types. How many clerics do you see in stories that aren't directly based on D&D?

And in the vast majority of fantasy novels, military training and combat experience is important, whether it's the Assassin trilogy by Robin Hobb, Game of Thrones by GRRM, Mary Gentle's Ash series, Glen Cook's Black Company series, arguably Stevenson's Malazan (but that is all over the place on this, at times it matters, at times magic means it doesn't), Joe Abercrombie's First Law-world books, or whatever.

Those novels don't tell us anything apart from your taste in literature. They all fall into a narrow subset of a far larger genre - modern, gritty, dark, anti-heroic. And they all have one thing in common - NONE of them are in the original Appendix N list of books that inspired D&D.

Now if you had picked out Conan or John Carter as characters with military training you might have been on stronger ground. But military training doesn't stop you being a hero, it's just not a requirement.

What's particularly hilarious is that the classic "farm boy" everyone is obsessed with wouldn't even be a Fighter in D&D, he'd be a Psychic Warrior if he was a D&D class at all, because he had MASSIVE MAGICAL POWERS (Luke Skywalker that is), which are what made him so capable.

Err, yes, most farm boy heroes have magical powers. That's kind of the point. It goes back to the Greek Myths that so heavily inspired D&D, where most heroes where the illegitimate offspring of gods (as well as farm boys).

 

[Oofta]

Err, yes, most farm boy heroes have magical powers. That's kind of the point. It goes back to the Greek Myths that so heavily inspired D&D, where most heroes where the illegitimate offspring of gods (as well as farm boys).

For Luke the answer is obvious. He's sold his soul to a Yoda demon and became a warlock. Being controlled by ever more ridiculous hallucinations he helps tear down the lawful government in a poorly conceived "rebellion" with the aid of AI slaves.

It's sad story of descent into madness.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

For Luke the answer is obvious. He's sold his soul to a Yoda demon and became a warlock. Being controlled by ever more ridiculous hallucinations he helps tear down the lawful government in a poorly conceived "rebellion" with the aid of AI slaves.

It's sad story of descent into madness.

Remember that killing spree he was influenced to commit by thinking everyone was posessed by aboleth? Sad sad time.