D&D 5E What is balance to you, and why do you care (or don't)?

There was a lot of (possibly theoretical) abuse of Leadership reported in the 3.x era, so supposedly, many DM's banned it (it was often called out lists of house rules). It would probably work better in 5e with it's standardized stat blocks for NPC's.
yeah cohorts could break games.

I tell a story all the time of my 'opps' druid cohort. We had a not optimized team. I was a cleric. We made an alliance with a druid grove and I took leadership... and got a druid that I threw togather quick... took a dire wolf compainon. Then twoish fights in My druid cohort (lower level) cast a self buff or two used share spell with the dire wolf and was by FAR the MVP.. by the end of game two we realized with just 1 or 2 spells my wolf was a better fighter then our fighter...

I swapped the feat for Iron Will and the druid went off to handle a side mission....
 

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Yeah, if that could destroy bounded accuracy, then so would +2 and +3 magic weapons.
To say nothing of rolled stats. We had a Oath of the Ancients paladin who started with an 18 str/20 cha in my last game. Giving out +5 to saves (and resistance to all magic damage) makes a mockery of bounded accuracy (on the defense side). Though honestly the paladin aura should have been slapped down in playtest.
 

Medic

Neutral Evil
I'm seeing a lot of discussion in this thread about how martials need a boost and casters need a nerf. Martials (at least as presented in 5th Ed) do suffer some endemic problems that I've yet to see discussed in this thread, but I am surprised that nobody has brought up the harm that the de-emphasis of money, magic items, and crafting has done. I could vomit forth an essay on the subject, but I'll make it brief.

Money was supposed to be the ambrosia that allowed some degree of parity between classes. In concept, martials didn't need a bunch of class features, because they were "supposed to" accumulate (either by finding, buying or crafting) an expansive arsenal of useful items that casters either didn't particularly need or couldn't really use. Winged Boots, for instance, could of course be a boon to a Wizard, but they would really expand the options available to a Paladin, and only the latter could effectively use armor with the Reflecting property. Heck, being able to shop around for an array of potions meant that a Barbarian could have access to spells like Invisibility, Haste, and Tongues.

Similarly, the loss of Use Magic Device is just plain insulting to Rogues. The option for a sufficiently rich or lucky Rogue to unexpectedly pull out a Meteor Swarm or Time Stop when the situation seemed dicey is now absent, save for one archetype that can't do it reliably anyways. Even using wands and low-level scrolls to play a budget version of Inspector Gadget is gone. Can't have another class stepping on the toes of that sad, oppressed Wizard, I guess.

No, it wasn't perfect. Yes, 5th Edition has a list of magic items and rules for buying them tucked away in some splatbook or another. But between the "you don't need magic items, wink wink" design philosophy, absence of crafting, and no reliable rules for shopping around in the core system (not to mention the ludicrous prices!), how the heck is a Fighter supposed to stay stocked up on the good stuff that would actually keep them relevant at level seventeen?
 

Scribe

Legend
I'm seeing a lot of discussion in this thread about how martials need a boost and casters need a nerf. Martials (at least as presented in 5th Ed) do suffer some endemic problems that I've yet to see discussed in this thread, but I am surprised that nobody has brought up the harm that the de-emphasis of money, magic items, and crafting has done. I could vomit forth an essay on the subject, but I'll make it brief.

Money was supposed to be the ambrosia that allowed some degree of parity between classes. In concept, martials didn't need a bunch of class features, because they were "supposed to" accumulate (either by finding, buying or crafting) an expansive arsenal of useful items that casters either didn't particularly need or couldn't really use. Winged Boots, for instance, could of course be a boon to a Wizard, but they would really expand the options available to a Paladin, and only the latter could effectively use armor with the Reflecting property. Heck, being able to shop around for an array of potions meant that a Barbarian could have access to spells like Invisibility, Haste, and Tongues.

Similarly, the loss of Use Magic Device is just plain insulting to Rogues. The option for a sufficiently rich or lucky Rogue to unexpectedly pull out a Meteor Swarm or Time Stop when the situation seemed dicey is now absent, save for one archetype that can't do it reliably anyways. Even using wands and low-level scrolls to play a budget version of Inspector Gadget is gone. Can't have another class stepping on the toes of that sad, oppressed Wizard, I guess.

No, it wasn't perfect. Yes, 5th Edition has a list of magic items and rules for buying them tucked away in some splatbook or another. But between the "you don't need magic items, wink wink" design philosophy, absence of crafting, and no reliable rules for shopping around in the core system (not to mention the ludicrous prices!), how the heck is a Fighter supposed to stay stocked up on the good stuff that would actually keep them relevant at level seventeen?
I've said the same. Removal of Items (and Feats) from being assumed, has not improved things.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
I've said the same. Removal of Items (and Feats) from being assumed, has not improved things.
I actually think its quite improved. Like the way having classes level at different experience scores going away did.
 


Money was supposed to be the ambrosia that allowed some degree of parity between classes. In concept, martials didn't need a bunch of class features, because they were "supposed to" accumulate (either by finding, buying or crafting) an expansive arsenal of useful items that casters either didn't particularly need or couldn't really use.
That feels like a 2e answer that lost the shuffle by the year 2000 with the d20 system

casters makeing a belt of magnificence (+x to all 6 stats) that only worked for an elf with wizard training to make it cheaper was a common trick i saw... making it worse was if you FOUND a +X item to one stat of course let the fighter have that... he only needs 1 or 2 stats anyway.

by 4e/5e with +x wand/rod/staff in the game (and orb and totem and ki focus) it got worse.

if everyone is given the option to buy items wizards have BETTER options today with spell completion items (wand/staff) then anything you have to be a fighter for...

No, it wasn't perfect. Yes, 5th Edition has a list of magic items and rules for buying them tucked away in some splatbook or another. But between the "you don't need magic items, wink wink" design philosophy, absence of crafting, and no reliable rules for shopping around in the core system (not to mention the ludicrous prices!), how the heck is a Fighter supposed to stay stocked up on the good stuff that would actually keep them relevant at level seventeen?
in this world you imagine would not rogues with use magic device and casters just load up with scrolls that are cheaper for use then potions? and they too can buy potions (that gets around concentraion)
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
Thats fair. I wish we had an 'I acknowledge you but disagree' emoji response. :D
I usually use this.
Larry David Reaction GIF


The reason I dont like money and items being baked into the game balance is the legion of GMs who think it works just fine if they never give you any.
 


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