D&D General What Is D&D Generally Bad At That You Wish It Was Better At?

I remember one adventure back in HS. We started at level 8-9. DM had this whole segment planned about traversing dangerous part of Underdark (that would take us few sessions). Friend found some broken race/template, can't remember what, that gave him Shadow walk ability ( same as 5th level spell). So we just used that and skipped whole wilderness crawl/travel. DM flipped the switch and just ended session.
 

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Because the economy of 3e was emphatically not simulationist and any attempt to make it so results in 404: Logic Not Found errors.


Perhaps, then, it is worth reevaluating whether these things are, in fact, a good thing or not?

If implementing a bunch of stuff consistently makes a DM appear to be a bad guy...that might be a reason to consider whether or not doing those things is, in itself, bad/unwanted/harmful?


Nah. Because then you're just driving folks away from the word go.

The people who would feel that this was the DM being a bad guy to them would respond to the default you speak of by viewing the game itself as bad. A minority subset almost certainly would take interest--such is the way of things, there's always some "hardcore" players in any audience--but the sizable majority would look at it and say, "Nah. I'm out. Bye." And then they won't come back, because they know getting a game that offers the kind of experience they're looking for will be like pulling teeth.
No one ever said every player is going to enjoy @Lanefan 's (or my) game, but it seems we both manage well enough.
 

I remember one adventure back in HS. We started at level 8-9. DM had this whole segment planned about traversing dangerous part of Underdark (that would take us few sessions). Friend found some broken race/template, can't remember what, that gave him Shadow walk ability ( same as 5th level spell). So we just used that and skipped whole wilderness crawl/travel. DM flipped the switch and just ended session.
I think groups SHOULD skip the stuff they don't find fun, but I think that D&D should enable that stuff for people that enjoy it. I mean, the game has 1000 pages of core rules. It's okay to include travel rules, detailed combat, social rules etc...
 

I think groups SHOULD skip the stuff they don't find fun, but I think that D&D should enable that stuff for people that enjoy it. I mean, the game has 1000 pages of core rules. It's okay to include travel rules, detailed combat, social rules etc...
You would think so. I certainly believe more options are better.
 

Like I said, they weren't as successful as I would like. But that is more related to the perennial problem of travel not being resource intensive enough to convince the party to rely on skills rather than spells. Daily resource regeneration doesn't put enough stress on when there's very rarely more than a single encounter per day.
To me, this seems reasonably consistent with what I posted upthread - It's not just about rules, but about their quality.

If the 3E skill rules, lists of DCs etc didn't actually produce play in which skills mattered more than spells in the playing out of wilderness travel, to me that suggests that they're not working very well as rules.
 

I remember one adventure back in HS. We started at level 8-9. DM had this whole segment planned about traversing dangerous part of Underdark (that would take us few sessions). Friend found some broken race/template, can't remember what, that gave him Shadow walk ability ( same as 5th level spell). So we just used that and skipped whole wilderness crawl/travel. DM flipped the switch and just ended session.
But if Shadow Walk is 5th level, and your PCs are 9th level, it doesn't seem like it's broken to have access to Shadow Walk!
 

To me, this seems reasonably consistent with what I posted upthread - It's not just about rules, but about their quality.

If the 3E skill rules, lists of DCs etc didn't actually produce play in which skills mattered more than spells in the playing out of wilderness travel, to me that suggests that they're not working very well as rules.
That is not the rules being bad, that is the overall system not doing what it is intended to do because of adjacent design choices. I think there is a difference.
 

But if Shadow Walk is 5th level, and your PCs are 9th level, it doesn't seem like it's broken to have access to Shadow Walk!
It's 5th level Bard spell, 3.5 bards get those at lv 13, and 6th level sorc&wiz so level 12/13 (also sorcerers lagged level behind wizards). He got it trough race/template or something like that at level 8-9 as non caster.
 

But if Shadow Walk is 5th level, and your PCs are 9th level, it doesn't seem like it's broken to have access to Shadow Walk!
If you build a game (say, 3E) oriented around the party overcoming preplanned challenges, and the games has hundreds of specifically coded player-facing exceptions (i.e. spells, and some other class/race features) that allow challenges to be bypassed or obviated, this does seem like the natural result of play.

If you want a game where those challenges are overcome with a certain range of tempos, then maybe the game shouldn't encode hundreds of exceptions!
 

It's the DMs job to entertain the players by presenting them with challenges to overcome. If the players enjoy the challenges they are a Good Guy (and they keep insisting that he continues to DM, like forever), if the players don't enjoy them, they are the Bad Guy.

Thing is, that doesn't depend on the rules, or the challenges, it depends on the players, what sort of thing they like.

Only a minority? It seems to me that a great many people like to play videogames on Hardcore Unfair difficulty settings. My players keep talking about their Honour Mode playthroughs of BG3, and how they are getting on with Elden Ring. That's not for me, but it seems plenty popular.
A minority of D&D players can still be "a great many." A minority of video gamers can still be an enormous number of people.

You are conflating absolute number, which is in the hundreds of thousands (a large amount), with relative percentage (which may be quite low).

Only about 10% of attempted Honor Mode runs of BG3 succeed, per Larian's own collected data. About 1.2 million failed attempts, and about 140,000 successful attempts. This compared to the total sales of about 15 million mean that only slightly-less-than 10% of players (assuming one attempt per player, because otherwise it would be a lower percentage) even try to attempt Honor Mode, and only slightly-more-than 10% of those people succeed. So, yes, I think it's quite reasonable to say that this is a minority preference. That absolutely does not mean that it should be deleted, not by any means! But it does mean that if BG3 had been set at Honor Mode from the get go, and only allowed players to attempt a lower difficulty after jumping through a bunch of hoops and being told repeatedly how much they were making the game super crazy easy etc. etc., there is absolutely, positively no way that it would have succeeded the way it actually did.

And the Elden Ring analogy is also fraught, because while it is hard, it is hard BUT FAIR, and it includes what are functionally "easy mode" approaches to play. That is, there are some playstyles or approaches that are much easier to use than others, to the point that some players disdain them for being too easy. (I have not played the game myself, but I know several people who have.) Such has been true of every "Souls-like" game, or whatever we wish to refer to it as.

Looping back to the "but fair" side of things, this is something a lot of old school DMs don't really seem to grok very well. They love what I would call bovine feces challenges, where mere crap luck or coincidence not only easily kill, they frequently kill. That is precisely the antithesis of the "Souls-like" subgenre's offering. The whole point of this kind of "tough but fair" difficulty is that the game is absolutely consistent and (almost always) NOT random; if you die, it's very specifically because you yourself actually did make a bad tactical decision (or, more commonly, a string of them), not because a boss got an unlucky critical hit or whatever. Not because there was a dumb "gotcha!" monster (ear seeker, cloaker, piercer, lurker above, black pudding, etc., etc.) and the DM gleefully put another character sheet in the bonfire, but because the player actually could learn, theoretically even in the very first encounter, how to fight and thus how to beat absolutely any monster or boss.

That's the "hard but fair" gameplay that does, in fact, attract a reasonable number of customers (though still not the majority of gamers, because most gamers want a reasonably-paced leisure time activity, not a gauntlet they must overcome with great effort.) It's also almost nothing like my experience of old-school D&D, and nothing at all like what I keep hearing about old-school D&D, which very much prides itself on puzzles and problems and monsters that cannot be solved until you have already lost to them at least once before.
 

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