D&D General What Is D&D Generally Bad At That You Wish It Was Better At?

[Reynard]

But other than strength and dexterity are arbitrarily separated and maybe hurts verisimilitude, how does this negatively impact the actual game?

For players that like nuance,it would probably be better. But I agree, it generally works fine.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Exactly so. It's sometimes called "the thief problem." Everyone in OD&D was a thief and could do thief stuff like hide, climb walls, pick pockets, and pick locks...then the thief class was published in Greyhawk...and suddenly only the thief could do those things.

i feel like a fairly simple solution to this would just be to let rules for codified actions apply to everyone, but only the classes with the feature get to apply all their bonuses.

 

[Corinnguard]

i feel like a fairly simple solution to this would just be to let rules for codified actions apply to everyone, but only the classes with the feature get to apply all their bonuses.

Much like how 5e allows everyone to fight with two weapons simultaneously while allowing those with the TWF Fighting style to get the damage bonus for their offhand weapon.

 

[mamba]

No, I clearly indicated what a "bad game" is. It's the one that prohibits modification of the rules.

how does it do that? Have a rule that tells me not to change anything? If I want to change something that is not really going to stop me…

Can you name a TTRPG you consider a ‘bad game’ according to your criteria?

 

[Xenolith234]

isn’t the blame that you do have to adjust the rules to get it to work in the first place?

If you need to adjust things then the game is not good at it on its own

And if it doesn’t provide alternative rules to get the adjustments you seek without doing it yourself. Thoughtful variant rules.

 

[Remathilis]

Not if the system is designed to be versatile, which 100% of ttrpgs are. Designers know each table is different and there has to be that "Rule 0" which allows groups to adjust system rules to their liking.

Bad design is when a system prohibits modification.

I'm pretty sure that's called the Oberoni Fallacy.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

No, I clearly indicated what a "bad game" is. It's the one that prohibits modification of the rules. Most of the games we humans play have a space within their design that allows for rules to be changed.

Chess, football, poker, whatever. Rules are always changing for one reason or another - usually to improve play experiences for players or the audience or both. TTRPGs are no different. But, feel free to disagree

"Every game that doesn't allow you to modify the rules is bad, and every game that allows you to modify the rules is good" is an equally ridiculous position.

You've literally given examles of three different games that do not have "Rule Zero". Yet you agree they can be adjusted if the players feel it necessary. The only conclusion we can draw from this is that every game can be changed if the players feel it necessary--and thus there is no such thing as a badly-designed game.

Even if that critical flaw weren't present, it's quite clear that a game can be designed badly separately from whether they permit modification. A game about combat that has zero rules for combat is a badly-made game, objectively, it's literally bad at doing the thing it was designed to do.

 

[Remathilis]

isn’t the blame that you do have to adjust the rules to get it to work in the first place?

If you need to adjust things then the game is not good at it on its own

I think that's getting forgotten. Just because D&D can be modified to a particular style doesn't mean it was designed for handling that style. The d20 system is absolutely amazing at handling a variety of game styles. Dungeons and Dragons as written in the PHB, is less so.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I'm pretty sure that's called the Oberoni Fallacy.

Not quite. It's a close sibling, but not the Oberoni Fallacy proper. That's the argument that any problem one might have isn't a problem because one can apply "Rule Zero". What this is saying is, any game that is somehow impossible to modify (which...I'm not sure how that would even work, as @mamba noted) is necessarily a badly-designed game, and any game that permits modification is necessarily a well-designed game.

I think that's getting forgotten. Just because D&D can be modified to a particular style doesn't mean it was designed for handling that style. The d20 system is absolutely amazing at handling a variety of game styles. Dungeons and Dragons™ as written in the PHB, is less so.

It's just the unavoidable consequence of the obsession with the "auteur DM" and the claim that any specific edition of D&D is a pure, uncommitted, generic toolbox...when it is absolutely not any of those four things (neither pure, nor uncommitted, nor generic, nor even that much of a toolbox.)

 

[DinoInDisguise]

I'm pretty sure that's called the Oberoni Fallacy.

This "fallacy" isn't a fallacy but just a difference in opinion.

Snarf explains why this is, link below, and why we shouldn't just dismiss arguments with "but fallacy."

Remember a fallacy requires a "mistaken belief" or a "failure in reasoning that renders an argument invalid." Simply not agreeing isnt on that list. And saying "a problem isn't a problem because I can fix it" doesn't meet the definition either. To quote Snarf on this fallacy, "one might as well say, to coin a phrase, "Rules, not rulings.""

Thread 'Fallacious Follies: Oberoni, Stormwind, and Fallacies OH MY!'

Oct 20, 2023

I occasionally discuss my dislike of internet conversations that derail into people arguing about arguing, as opposed to discussing the issue at hand. So, instead of having yet another interjection regarding it, I thought I'd go into detail in a thread about two things that I always find particularly pernicious in conversations about RPGs; first, of course, is when someone brings out the dreaded "informal logical fallacy" into a discussion. Second is the choice to create new logical fallacies in order to pwn one's opponents; which is an issue closely related to the misuse of jargon...

• Snarf Zagyg

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