D&D General What Is D&D Generally Bad At That You Wish It Was Better At?

[pemerton]

RM in particular began as a system of rules ("Laws") to lay on top of D&D to "fix" it. If I recall, it only became a complete and distinct game once TSR started gunning for 3PPs in the AD&D days.

Yeah, I'm not across all the publication details. The version I picked up in early 1990 was "RM II", which I think had reached a stable form in the second half of the 80s.

 

[GrimCo]

Mundane obstacles after some levels become - boring. That's why game gives you options to instantly overcome it. 5e is going for that action adventure movie feel where heroes start as nobodies and with levels they become larger than life. By tier 2 they are in action movie protagonist territory. At tier 3, they are in greek mythic heroes territory. Tier 4 characters are demigods, so far removed from regular joe shmoe, that it's not even comparable. Now, circle back to your action hero character. Does it make sense that he is stricken down with dysentery every time he drinks water from new land? Or he takes full blast of dragon's breath to the face without flinching, but tiny parasite transmitted by mosquito bite will put him out of commission for couple of weeks? Well, maybe it does, but it kills the vibe.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Mundane obstacles after some levels become - boring. That's why game gives you options to instantly overcome it. 5e is going for that action adventure movie feel where heroes start as nobodies and with levels they become larger than life. By tier 2 they are in action movie protagonist territory. At tier 3, they are in greek mythic heroes territory. Tier 4 characters are demigods, so far removed from regular joe shmoe, that it's not even comparable. Now, circle back to your action hero character. Does it make sense that he is stricken down with dysentery every time he drinks water from new land? Or he takes full blast of dragon's breath to the face without flinching, but tiny parasite transmitted by mosquito bite will put him out of commission for couple of weeks? Well, maybe it does, but it kills the vibe.

I really think the game should be crystal-clear on that power curve, particularly as it insists on using the same name as games that used a significantly different one. For those of you think it is being clear, I would ask how closely the current paradigm aligns with your present preferences.

 

[pemerton]

I really think the game should be crystal-clear on that power curve

Well, this is D&D General - so I can't speak to 5e D&D (though @Imaro quoted something upthread that seemed clear enough), but can speak to 4e D&D. It makes the tiers - Heroic, Paragon, Epic - crystal clear, and follows through with power design, ritual design, magic item design, monster design - all of these cohere with the conception of the tiers.

Published adventure design, on the other hand, does not always cohere with the tiers. I started a thread on this back in 2011: Scenario starting points and PC's position in the gameworld

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, this is D&D General - so I can't speak to 5e D&D (though @Imaro quoted something upthread that seemed clear enough), but can speak to 4e D&D. It makes the tiers - Heroic, Paragon, Epic - crystal clear, and follows through with power design, ritual design, magic item design, monster design - all of these cohere with the conception of the tiers.

Published adventure design, on the other hand, does not always cohere with the tiers. I started a thread on this back in 2011: Scenario starting points and PC's position in the gameworld

I agree about 4e. One of the best things about it was how clear it was in its intended playstyle.

 

[Imaro]

Well, this is D&D General - so I can't speak to 5e D&D (though @Imaro quoted something upthread that seemed clear enough), but can speak to 4e D&D. It makes the tiers - Heroic, Paragon, Epic - crystal clear, and follows through with power design, ritual design, magic item design, monster design - all of these cohere with the conception of the tiers.

Published adventure design, on the other hand, does not always cohere with the tiers. I started a thread on this back in 2011: Scenario starting points and PC's position in the gameworld

I agree about 4e. One of the best things about it was how clear it was in its intended playstyle.

I think 5e is pretty clear in describing its Tiers of Play... from the 5e DMG...


As characters grow in power, their ability to change the world around them grows with them. It helps to think ahead when creating your campaign to account for this change. As the characters make a greater impact on the world, they face greater danger whether they want to or not. Powerful factions see them as a threat and plot against them, while friendly ones court their favor in hopes of striking a useful alliance.

The tiers of play represent the ideal milestones for introducing new world-shaking events to the campaign. As the characters resolve one event, a new danger arises or the prior trouble transforms into a new threat in response to the characters’ actions. Events need to grow in magnitude and scope, increasing the stakes and drama as the characters become increasingly powerful. This approach also allows you to break your design work down into smaller pieces. Create material such as adventures, NPCs, maps, and so on for one tier at a time. You only need to worry about the details of the next tier as the characters approach it. Even better, as the campaign takes unexpected turns in response to the players’ choices, you don’t have to worry about redoing much work.


Levels 1-4: Local Heroes
Characters in this tier are still learning the range of class features that define them, including their choice of specialization. But even 1st-level characters are heroes, set apart from the common people by natural characteristics, learned skills, and the hint of a greater destiny that lies before them.

At the start of their careers, characters use 1st- and 2nd-level spells and wield mundane gear. The magic items they find include common consumable items (potions and scrolls) and a very few uncommon permanent items. Their magic can have a big impact in a single encounter, but it doesn’t change the course of an adventure.

The fate of a village might hang on the success or failure of low-level adventurers, who trust their lives to their fledgling abilities. These characters navigate dangerous terrain and explore haunted crypts, where they can expect to fight ruthless bandits, ferocious wolves, giant spiders, evil cultists, bloodthirsty ghouls, and hired thugs. If they face even a young dragon, they’re better off avoiding a fight.


Levels 5-10: Heroes of the Realm
By the time they reach this tier, adventurers have mastered the basics of their class features, though they continue to improve throughout these levels. They have found their place in the world and have begun to involve themselves in the dangers that surround them.

Dedicated spellcasters learn 3rd-level spells at the start of this tier. Suddenly characters can fly, damage large numbers of foes with fireball and lightning bolt spells, and even breathe underwater. They master 5th-level spells by the end of the tier, and spells such as teleportation circle, scrying, flame strike, legend lore, and raise dead can have a significant impact on their adventures. They start acquiring more permanent magic items (uncommon and rare ones) as well, which will serve them for the rest of their careers.

The fate of a region might depend on the adventures that characters of levels 5 to 10 undertake. These adventurers venture into fearsome wilds and ancient ruins, where they confront brutal giants, ferocious hydras, fearless golems, evil yuan-ti, scheming devils, bloodthirsty demons, crafty mind flayers, and drow assassins. They might have a chance of defeating a young dragon that has established a lair but not yet extended its reach far into the surrounding territory.


Levels 11-16: Masters of the Realm
By 11th level, characters are shining examples of courage and determination — true paragons in the world, set well apart from the masses. At this tier, adventurers are far more versatile than they were at lower levels, and they can usually find the right tool for a given challenge.

Dedicated spellcasters gain access to 6th-level spells at 11th level, including spells that completely change the way adventurers interact with the world. Their big, flashy spells are significant in combat — disintegrate, blade barrier, and heal, for example — but behind-the-scenes spells such as word of recall, find the path, contingency, teleport, and true seeing alter the way players approach their adventures. Each spell level after that point introduces new effects with an equally large impact. The adventurers find rare magic items (and very rare ones) that bestow similarly powerful abilities.

The fate of a nation or even the world depends on momentous quests that such characters undertake. Adventurers explore uncharted regions and delve into long-forgotten dungeons, where they confront terrible masterminds of the lower planes, cunning rakshasas and beholders, and hungry purple worms. They might encounter and even defeat a powerful adult dragon that has established a lair and a significant presence in the world.


Levels 17-20: Masters of the World
At this tier, adventurers make their mark on the world in a variety of ways, from the consequences of their adventures to the manner in which they spend their hard-won treasure and exploit their well-deserved reputations. Characters of this level construct fortresses on land deeded them by local rulers. They found guilds, temples, or martial orders. They take on apprentices or students of their own. They broker peace between nations or lead them into war. And their formidable reputations attract the attention of very powerful foes.

By 17th level, characters have superheroic capabilities, and their deeds and adventures are the stuff of legend. Ordinary people can hardly dream of such heights of power — or such terrible dangers.

Dedicated spellcasters at this tier wield earthshaking 9th-level spells such as wish, gate, storm of vengeance, and astral projection. Characters have several rare and very rare magic items at their disposal, and begin discovering legendary items such as a vorpal sword or a staff of the magi.

Adventures at these levels have far-reaching consequences, possibly determining the fate of millions in the Material Plane and even places beyond. Characters traverse otherworldly realms and explore demiplanes and other extraplanar locales, where they fight savage balor demons, titans, archdevils, lich archmages, and even avatars of the gods themselves. The dragons they encounter are wyrms of tremendous power, whose sleep troubles kingdoms and whose waking threatens existence itself.

Characters who reach 20th level have attained the pinnacle of mortal achievement. Their deeds are recorded in the annals of history and recounted by bards for centuries. Their ultimate destinies come to pass. A cleric might be taken up into the heavens to serve as a god’s right hand. A warlock could become a patron to other warlocks. Perhaps a wizard unlocks the secret to immortality (or undeath) and spends eons exploring the farthest reaches of the multiverse. A druid might become one with the land, transforming into a nature spirit of a particular place or an aspect of the wild. Other characters could found clans or dynasties that revere the memory of their honored ancestors from generation to generation, create masterpieces of epic literature that are sung and retold for thousands of years, or establish guilds or orders that keep the adventurers’ principles and dreams alive.

Reaching this point doesn’t necessarily dictate the end of the campaign. These powerful characters might be called on to undertake grand adventures on the cosmic stage. And as a result of these adventures, their capabilities can continue to evolve. Characters gain no more levels at this point, but they can still advance in meaningful ways and continue performing epic deeds that resound throughout the multiverse. Chapter 7 details epic boons you can use as rewards for these characters to maintain a sense of progress.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think 5e is pretty clear in describing its Tiers of Play... from the 5e DMG...


As characters grow in power, their ability to change the world around them grows with them. It helps to think ahead when creating your campaign to account for this change. As the characters make a greater impact on the world, they face greater danger whether they want to or not. Powerful factions see them as a threat and plot against them, while friendly ones court their favor in hopes of striking a useful alliance.

The tiers of play represent the ideal milestones for introducing new world-shaking events to the campaign. As the characters resolve one event, a new danger arises or the prior trouble transforms into a new threat in response to the characters’ actions. Events need to grow in magnitude and scope, increasing the stakes and drama as the characters become increasingly powerful. This approach also allows you to break your design work down into smaller pieces. Create material such as adventures, NPCs, maps, and so on for one tier at a time. You only need to worry about the details of the next tier as the characters approach it. Even better, as the campaign takes unexpected turns in response to the players’ choices, you don’t have to worry about redoing much work.


Levels 1-4: Local Heroes
Characters in this tier are still learning the range of class features that define them, including their choice of specialization. But even 1st-level characters are heroes, set apart from the common people by natural characteristics, learned skills, and the hint of a greater destiny that lies before them.

At the start of their careers, characters use 1st- and 2nd-level spells and wield mundane gear. The magic items they find include common consumable items (potions and scrolls) and a very few uncommon permanent items. Their magic can have a big impact in a single encounter, but it doesn’t change the course of an adventure.

The fate of a village might hang on the success or failure of low-level adventurers, who trust their lives to their fledgling abilities. These characters navigate dangerous terrain and explore haunted crypts, where they can expect to fight ruthless bandits, ferocious wolves, giant spiders, evil cultists, bloodthirsty ghouls, and hired thugs. If they face even a young dragon, they’re better off avoiding a fight.


Levels 5-10: Heroes of the Realm
By the time they reach this tier, adventurers have mastered the basics of their class features, though they continue to improve throughout these levels. They have found their place in the world and have begun to involve themselves in the dangers that surround them.

Dedicated spellcasters learn 3rd-level spells at the start of this tier. Suddenly characters can fly, damage large numbers of foes with fireball and lightning bolt spells, and even breathe underwater. They master 5th-level spells by the end of the tier, and spells such as teleportation circle, scrying, flame strike, legend lore, and raise dead can have a significant impact on their adventures. They start acquiring more permanent magic items (uncommon and rare ones) as well, which will serve them for the rest of their careers.

The fate of a region might depend on the adventures that characters of levels 5 to 10 undertake. These adventurers venture into fearsome wilds and ancient ruins, where they confront brutal giants, ferocious hydras, fearless golems, evil yuan-ti, scheming devils, bloodthirsty demons, crafty mind flayers, and drow assassins. They might have a chance of defeating a young dragon that has established a lair but not yet extended its reach far into the surrounding territory.


Levels 11-16: Masters of the Realm
By 11th level, characters are shining examples of courage and determination — true paragons in the world, set well apart from the masses. At this tier, adventurers are far more versatile than they were at lower levels, and they can usually find the right tool for a given challenge.

Dedicated spellcasters gain access to 6th-level spells at 11th level, including spells that completely change the way adventurers interact with the world. Their big, flashy spells are significant in combat — disintegrate, blade barrier, and heal, for example — but behind-the-scenes spells such as word of recall, find the path, contingency, teleport, and true seeing alter the way players approach their adventures. Each spell level after that point introduces new effects with an equally large impact. The adventurers find rare magic items (and very rare ones) that bestow similarly powerful abilities.

The fate of a nation or even the world depends on momentous quests that such characters undertake. Adventurers explore uncharted regions and delve into long-forgotten dungeons, where they confront terrible masterminds of the lower planes, cunning rakshasas and beholders, and hungry purple worms. They might encounter and even defeat a powerful adult dragon that has established a lair and a significant presence in the world.


Levels 17-20: Masters of the World
At this tier, adventurers make their mark on the world in a variety of ways, from the consequences of their adventures to the manner in which they spend their hard-won treasure and exploit their well-deserved reputations. Characters of this level construct fortresses on land deeded them by local rulers. They found guilds, temples, or martial orders. They take on apprentices or students of their own. They broker peace between nations or lead them into war. And their formidable reputations attract the attention of very powerful foes.

By 17th level, characters have superheroic capabilities, and their deeds and adventures are the stuff of legend. Ordinary people can hardly dream of such heights of power — or such terrible dangers.

Dedicated spellcasters at this tier wield earthshaking 9th-level spells such as wish, gate, storm of vengeance, and astral projection. Characters have several rare and very rare magic items at their disposal, and begin discovering legendary items such as a vorpal sword or a staff of the magi.

Adventures at these levels have far-reaching consequences, possibly determining the fate of millions in the Material Plane and even places beyond. Characters traverse otherworldly realms and explore demiplanes and other extraplanar locales, where they fight savage balor demons, titans, archdevils, lich archmages, and even avatars of the gods themselves. The dragons they encounter are wyrms of tremendous power, whose sleep troubles kingdoms and whose waking threatens existence itself.

Characters who reach 20th level have attained the pinnacle of mortal achievement. Their deeds are recorded in the annals of history and recounted by bards for centuries. Their ultimate destinies come to pass. A cleric might be taken up into the heavens to serve as a god’s right hand. A warlock could become a patron to other warlocks. Perhaps a wizard unlocks the secret to immortality (or undeath) and spends eons exploring the farthest reaches of the multiverse. A druid might become one with the land, transforming into a nature spirit of a particular place or an aspect of the wild. Other characters could found clans or dynasties that revere the memory of their honored ancestors from generation to generation, create masterpieces of epic literature that are sung and retold for thousands of years, or establish guilds or orders that keep the adventurers’ principles and dreams alive.

Reaching this point doesn’t necessarily dictate the end of the campaign. These powerful characters might be called on to undertake grand adventures on the cosmic stage. And as a result of these adventures, their capabilities can continue to evolve. Characters gain no more levels at this point, but they can still advance in meaningful ways and continue performing epic deeds that resound throughout the multiverse. Chapter 7 details epic boons you can use as rewards for these characters to maintain a sense of progress.

I don't see anything in there that makes them immune to mundane challenges.

 

[Imaro]

I don't see anything in there that makes them immune to mundane challenges.

Really? You're just being unnecessarily pedantic at this point... you are literally facing demons, dragons, and raising the dead... but the real challenge of the adventure is dealing with a cold...

 

[Micah Sweet]

Really? You're just being unnecessarily pedantic at this point... you are literally facing demons, dragons, and raising the dead... but the real challenge of the adventure is dealing with a cold...

I didn't say it was the "real" challenge, or the most important, but it's still part of life and part of the setting, no matter what the "plot" is supposed to be (not that I would be pushing one in my game).

 

[Imaro]

I didn't say it was the "real" challenge, or the most important, but it's still part of life and part of the setting, no matter what the "plot" is supposed to be (not that I would be pushing one in my game).

Yes part of the game and trivially overcome, which is what I was originally addressing. No one said it just vanished but it's no longer a major obstacle to adventurers in this tier and that's consistent with the description I posted.