D&D General What *is* D&D? (mild movie spoilers)

[FormerlyHemlock]

Even the movie feels like low level play with high level PCs.

How differently we feel! To me the movie feels like low-level play, full stop. In 5E terms Edgin feels like a Mastermind 3, Holga feels like a Fighter 8 (rageless Barbarian ~= Fighter), Simon feels a bit like an Artificer 6 or a Sorcerer 4, and Doric feels like a variant Druid 6 with expanded wildshape instead of spellcasting.

I don't get high-level vibes from anyone but Zenk.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Not if the conclusion is consistent with the evidence.

That evidence is not relevant to the old school, low magic point I already accepted as my position. Throwing in more examples of high magic doesn't change that, which I also stated above.

And it was the tone of the replied to post that I was referring to, which absolutely was petty.

 

[Micah Sweet]

How differently we feel! To me the movie feels like low-level play, full stop. In 5E terms Edgin feels like a Mastermind 3, Holga feels like a Fighter 8 (rageless Barbarian ~= Fighter), Simon feels a bit like an Artificer 6 or a Sorcerer 4, and Doric feels like a variant Druid 6 with expanded wildshape instead of spellcasting.

I don't get high-level vibes from anyone but Zenk.

They were high level because of what they faced. They played like low level characters.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

That evidence is not relevant

I'm a scientist. You cannot convince me with "evidence is not relevant", the evidence is the ONLY THING that is relevant.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm a scientist. You cannot convince me with "evidence is not relevant", the evidence is the ONLY THING that is relevant.

Not relevant to my position that I see classic D&D as low magic from a far away, mysterious and subtle perspective. As has been stated, from a modern absolutist perspective (ie, how powerful  is magic?) It absolutely is high magic. But its not commonplace, and even PCs weren't throwing spells left and right, and  that's what I'm talking about.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

SNIP 5E has no real use for cash beyond level 1-3 or so is something unique to 5E because it's cut away everything previous editions used it for except spell components and even that's been reduced. SNIP

5E reminds me of Shadowrun in the sense that binding spirits/Planar Binding are terrific ways to spend cash in both.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Not relevant to my position that I see classic D&D as low magic from a far away, mysterious and subtle perspective. As has been stated, from a modern absolutist perspective (ie, how powerful  is magic?) It absolutely is high magic. But its not commonplace, and even PCs weren't throwing spells left and right, and  that's what I'm talking about.

So, you are saying that if you shut your eyes, put your figures in your ears and whistle, it's possible to pretend that its true?

 

[Micah Sweet]

So, you are saying that if you shut your eyes, put your figures in your ears and whistle, it's possible to pretend that its true?

Petty and insulting, and deliberately obtuse. I'm done with you.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

In early editions, getting rich and powerful was a major focus, in line with the aspirations (often not met) of Sword and Sorcery characters. Whereas today most parties are more straightforwardly heroic, sort of pretending to be acquisitive, but generally more focused on doing good. This is reflected in the recent movie. I don't think the current situation will be the final position of D&D, either.

From reading about the lives of Gary Gygax and his contemporaries--the shoe repair business, attempts to get paid for miniatures work, ambitions of starting a business--it's easy to see why finding a bunch of money in a dungeon was an appealing fantasy goal for them.

From looking at the loneliness and relative lack of family/community of contemporary Americans/Westerners, it's easy to see why becoming widely admired heroic celebrities with strong emotional bonds to other party members is an appealing fantasy to them.

Gygax had IIRC 5 kids and a wife and a strong community with which he was deeply involved. The things many gamers in 2023 are looking for, he already had, and vice versa. No wonder the fantasy goals are different!

P.S. Obviously there are also gamers in 2023 who have different needs/goals, but we're a minority and many are into OSR instead of 5E. Play what scratches your itch. It's all good.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Do you folks read the whole thread, or just react? My position on this has been explained. If you don't agree, that's ok.

I believe that your experience with Mystara was low magic. The fact that most other players’ experience with Mystara was high magic suggests that your experience is an outlier.

The Grand Duchy of Karameikos was the 3rd D&D product I purchased. The 5th was the Principalities of Glantri, a sourcebook in which virtually NPC was a wizard, and many were high level.

I fondly remember the Mystara boxed sets I owned:

• Dawn of the Emperors, about Thyatis and Alphatia - very high magic;
• Voyages of the Princess Ark - very high magic;
• the Hollow World - high magic
• Wrath of the Immortals - spaceships, science fiction, many many immortals, high magic.

Your claim that Mystara isn’t high magic just isn’t consistent at all with my experience of Mystara.