What *is* it about paladins that makes people nutty, anyway?

[Thunderfoot]

<SNIP>Hmmm...Jean D'arc, Karl Martell, Charlemagne, and Lancelot du Lac. Maybe its something in the wine or the frog-legs.

Not with a ten-foot pole.

 

[Voadam]

Those are guidelines not a true code. These are points of the rules which ALL Paladins MUST adhere to, . .

The problem most players and DMs run into is that a code is not a list of absolute rules, it is a pattern of behavior shaped by the environment at large. . . .

So be VERY careful saying that the rules are listed in the SRD, you are not wrong, but neither are you absolutely right.

code: any set of principles or rules of conduct.

It is not a pattern of behavior shaped by an environment at large.

The srd and PH rules spell out what the paladin code requires and provides a mechanical effect if the code is grossly violated.

 

[Elf Witch]

I think the biggest problem with paladins is that usually the DM and the player are not on the same page. It really helps if the DM and the player sit down and talk before the game. The player needs to know just what is considered evil in this DM's game. The monster manual may say that so and so is always evil but the DM may decide that is not the case. If the player knows this then he can play his paladin more effectively.

It also helps if the player understands how the world works in regard to taking prisoners the handling of justice. Things like that. Maybe in this DM's game only judges may impose the death penalty on criminals and for a paladin to do so is breaking the law and committing murder.

If the player knows this beforehand it will not come as an unplesant surprise when he commits an act that could cause him to fall.

It never ceases to amaze me how many players make a paladin character and just assume that how they played one in another DM's game will work in a new game.

The other big problem is that sometimes bringing in a paladin is not going to work party wise if everyone else wants to play selfish amoral characters having a paladin is just going to cause tension. Again the solution to this is talking ahead of time about what the players want out of a game.

And of course it does not help to get the player who plays a paladin just for the goodies and then tries to force the game to be all about him and force the other players to scrape and bow to him. I just had a campaign end with that kind of player and it really made me hate paladins for awhile.

As for clerics I like the Kingdom of Kalamar's rules about clerics. They must be the same alignment as their diety.

 

[Pielorinho]

Not with a ten-foot pole.

Words of wisdom, to be perfectly Frank.

We actually had a similar experience in trying to infiltrate the Temple of Elemental Evil with a paladin who was uncomfortable with deception. We wished him the best, told him to contact us if he gathered enough forces for a frontal assault, and went our separate ways.

He was an NPC, which made this easier; but I think that similar behavior can be appropriate for PCs. Players need to understand the group gestalt. If the group comprises a bunch of noble, break-down-the-door, tell no lies paladins and clerics and companions, then don't create a bard who maxes out enchantment spells and bluff ranks. If the characters all have disguise capabilities, illusion spells, and the like, don't create a paladin who can't stand to hear a lie.

And if someone comes up with a character who's harshing everyone's buzz, have a sit-down with them and explain that they'll need to find another adventuring group if they want to adhere to that particular code of behavior.

Daniel

 

[Torm]

Dude, I'd just like to say that I love your sig. Wish I'd have thought of it first!

Thank yew!

 

[Hypersmurf]

We actually had a similar experience in trying to infiltrate the Temple of Elemental Evil with a paladin who was uncomfortable with deception. We wished him the best, told him to contact us if he gathered enough forces for a frontal assault, and went our separate ways.

There's a scene in Steven Brust's The Phoenix Guards, where Our Heroes (five soldiers, plus a lackey) are alerted to the presence of an ambush on the road ahead - thirty or so brigands. They split into two groups, circle behind the ambush, and attack from two flanks, defeating the brigands.

Just before the battle is joined, Khaavren is debating the honour in striking from behind, but Aerich solves his dilemma by addressing the bandits with a line like "Gentlemen, it would be for the best if you would surrender your swords."

Later in the book, as they pass the same spot once more and reminisce about the fight, their two new companions both remark that they wish they had been there.

"Not at all," Tazendra replies, "for it would no longer have been fair. Besides, had there been seven of us, Aerich would have required us to make a frontal assault, and some of us might have been injured..."

----

I remember DMing a party of first level PCs assaulting a kobold lair. The ranger and rogue managed to sneak up on the entrance to the caverns without being spotted, and took out the guards. The last guard was dropped with an AoO as he tried in vain to reach the alarm gong located just inside the cave.

The other PCs joined the ranger and rogue, and the paladin spied the gong. "Ah!" he said. "Convenient!" And rang it several times.

Why go to the trouble of hunting the warriors down in their lairs, he reasoned, when he could make them come to him?

-Hyp.

 

[ForceUser]

Why go to the trouble of hunting the warriors down in their lairs, he reasoned, when he could make them come to him?

-Hyp.

Hilarious.

 

[drothgery]

There's a scene in Steven Brust's The Phoenix Guards, where Our Heroes (five soldiers, plus a lackey) are alerted to the presence of an ambush on the road ahead - thirty or so brigands. They split into two groups, circle behind the ambush, and attack from two flanks, defeating the brigands.

Of course, it helped that Tazendra was a sorcerer (and she would be in D&D, too; socerers get spells based on Cha, not Int ) with the Craft Flashstone feat...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Of course, it helped that Tazendra was a sorcerer (and she would be in D&D, too; socerers get spells based on Cha, not Int ) with the Craft Flashtone feat...

Hey, Tazendra's plenty intelligent! One of her relatives was a tactician!

Well, briefly...

-Hyp.

 

[Aikuchi]

Very interesting, but i do find more agreement to Elf Wicthes statements.

Previous games I've been in or rather parties did not support a paladin styled character very well. The party was rather .... selfish and was antagonistic. More often than not. the paladin had to watch his 'trusted companions' as wel.

Some players also hold true to playing the same type of Paladin in every different game hoping to find one that suited his Paladin playing style rather than discussing just how much easier it would be to discuss wit hthe DM beforehand on how to approach roleplay for the paladin in that particular game.

Then there are those who are inflexible and choose to the play the class no matter what in every single game/scenario or setting.

One Devout Paladin player once decided to be different.

he played a Fighter ... who in later levels (in-game) sought to join the Paladin order ... (sigh) ...



External Off topic note:
Force User: Your Vietnamese game sounded wonderful Monkey Women and all! Glad to hear it lasted as long as it did.
My Ancient CHina games (when I was in the USA for a short while) didnt run quite as long. Maybe a few months till they got bored or couldnt quite continue to pretend that they liked leaving bodies behind untouched and to get in contact with the principalities of regions and districts and the medieval chinese bereacucracry Eveyone tended to be rather mercenary like and fewer even wanted to play in cityscapes (sigh) ...