what is OGL

[Wulf Ratbane]

This OGL versus d20 thing is getting confusing. I wonder if we could create a term that could refer to an OGL game/product that was d20-compatible.

That's a thorny problem, there, innit?

1) You have access to the d20 logo through the d20 System license. This is your first, best indication of compatibility. This is the one that WOTC wants publishers to use because it drives sales of their rulebooks (or at least, requires you to put "Requires the use of..." on the cover, which in theory drives sales of those rulebooks).

2) If you don't want to use the d20 logo (and many publishers don't, because of the restrictions the d20 license puts on you-- no character creation being chief among these) then you have an uphill battle. You have to create ANOTHER logo that says to the consumer "compatible with d20."

3) At this point, of course, you start to have trouble. If you try to unfairly profit from the goodwill that WOTC has established with the d20 logo and brand, you risk either trademark infringement or pissing off WOTC. Neither is a good solution. (This would be the reason that Mongoose's "d20 Cyberpunk" became "OGL Cyberpunk" before publication.)

4) You also have the uphill battle of creating a logo that carries the same impact as the d20 logo. WOTC (and many 3rd party publishers, by using the d20 logo) have spent vast sums of advertising money to establish the d20 logo. No 3rd party company relishes the idea of having to spend all their own money to do it all over again.

5) And finally, ideally, you would have to convince other companies to also use your logo-- to generate a universal symbol of compatibility. There just isn't that level of cooperation among the 3rd party publishers, for various reasons, not the least of which is that most 3rd party publishers are happy with the terms of the d20 System license, the vast benefits of using an established brand/logo that is supported with WOTCs advertising dollars, and the benefits of not pissing WOTC off.

Wulf

 

[Henry]

I am still confused does this mean I could xerox the combat section of conan and distribute it to all my friends. Surely not that would prevent Mongoose from making money and put them out of business.

First of all, I'll state that I'm not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice, but I'll state the case as I understand it and have seen it explained many times before:


The problem is this: EVERY OGL product has a section (usually in the opening page) that describes what in the product is Product Identity and what is Open Content. If ANY of what you copy is product identity, then you are violating the law - plain and simple. Even if (let's say hypothetically) Mongoose said that "all of the combat chapter is open content", this means that the INFO in that chapter is open content. The page itself, its expression, its graphics, it's headers and fonts, are ALL property of Mongoose (or the R.E. Howard estate), and cannot be copied. You COULD, however, copy all of the text word for word out of that chapter and distribute it with your OWN formatting, graphics, etc. as long as you left out the things that are obviously someone else's identity (like examples using the names Conan, Valeria, etc.).

Good example are Monte Cook's chapters on Feats and Spells. In some previous products, he has released ALL of his feats and their names (except for proper names) as open content. In that instance, you could copy a feat entirely according to OGL statement. His spells are different: The mechanics are usually released, but not Names or other PI. So if Monte creates a spell:

Floojib
Level:1
Effect: Ray
Save:None
SR Applies: Yes
This spell was created by Floojib the marvelous, and creates a ray of light that inflicts 1d6 fire damage upon contact.

You yourself could publish a Spell called Flopppadoodly that created a ray of light doing 1d6 fire damage that had no save.

In other words, CAREFULLY read the OGL statement of product identity before determining what you can use in a product of your own.

Personal use or Fair Use are different issues, and ones sufficiently complex that I'm not going to BEGIN to touch.

I hope the above helped somewhat.

 

[Planesdragon]

This OGL versus d20 thing is getting confusing. I wonder if we could create a term that could refer to an OGL game/product that was d20-compatible.

One already exists.

The prometheus compatability licenses is many things, and one of those is a "drop-in" d20TL replacement, with much fewer restrictions.

YOu can read more about it at http://www.theFGA.com/

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

One already exists.

The prometheus compatability licenses is many things, and one of those is a "drop-in" d20TL replacement, with much fewer restrictions.

YOu can read more about it at http://www.theFGA.com/

The problem with the Prometheus logo being that it is meaningless and has no traction with the consumer.

Since it is meaningless, no 3rd party publisher is eager to adopt it.

If 3rd party publishers do not adopt it, it will never gain any traction with the consumer.

Terrible Catch-22, but that's the situation.


Wulf

 

[Ranger REG]

This OGL versus d20 thing is getting confusing. I wonder if we could create a term that could refer to an OGL game/product that was d20-compatible.

A universal term/label to be used by all (similar to the familiar "DVD" logo coined and to this date trademarked by JVC)?

OR...

An identifiable term that each publisher can create on their own?

Such a term/trademark must be protected at all cost from idiots who use the term to mislead consumers. To do that, you need an organization that monitor the use of the universal term. Of course that means the trademark must be accompanied by a trademark use license.

It is true that 'OGL' is often used to refer to a product that is d20 compatible, as are Mutants and Masterminds, Arcana Unearthed, Conan, and many others.

But in the future, we will soon see a shift when Action! System will start trickle and later flood the market for those who have an aversion for any d20-based games.

For OGL product without the logo, it makes it difficult to market the product to d20 gamers. One of the smart thing you can do for a publisher is to build a company credibility and a fanbase by making a lot of good-quality d20 products. And then introduce that fanbase to an OGL product for them to spread the word around. Techically you cannot advertise, but your fans can by word of mouth.

Other rely on already known brand, like EverQuest.

One interesting product is AEG's Spycraft. It is a d20 System game published under the d20STL, and as such states it requires the use of the D&D player's handbook, even though they are completely different genres. I believe the Traveller d20 game is the same.

These products want to appeal the already established Wizards of the Coast fanbase. So with the logo, they got more than just a foot inside the consumers' doors.

 

[Umbran]

But in the future, we will soon see a shift when Action! System will start trickle and later flood the market for those who have an aversion for any d20-based games.

Hm. Somehow I strongly suspect that role will more likely be taken by WoD 2.0.

 

[Ranger REG]

Why? Do you have credible inside source that White Wolf is ready to Open their Storyteller System?

 

[Henry]

For OGL product without the logo, it makes it difficult to market the product to d20 gamers. One of the smart thing you can do for a publisher is to build a company credibility and a fanbase by making a lot of good-quality d20 products. And then introduce that fanbase to an OGL product for them to spread the word around. Techically you cannot advertise, but your fans can by word of mouth.

Like the Godfather of this practice, Monte Cook. 99% of his stuff is d20 Trademarked, with only those things done in OGL that the trademark is too restrictive for.

 

[Planesdragon]

Since it is meaningless, no 3rd party publisher is eager to adopt it.

Wrong on both parts.

Prometheus is an indicator of compatability. By putting the logo on a product, a publisher is saying "You can use this with other products that have this logo"--which is what d20 has come to mean, as well.

And we do have a few "3rd party publishers" who have already adopted Prometheus. I'll do a search, find a list, and poke our web guys to post a news item with the updates.

We're certainly SMALL, but we are in existance and people do know what we are. And if you don't want comatability but just "open-ness", we've also got the less-used OpenDie logo...

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Wrong on both parts.

Well, I wasn't trying to start a pissing match, but it's not really wrong. Considering the number of posters HERE, among the most educated and informed players of d20, who do not even know what the d20 System logo means, I don't think it is a stretch to call the Prometheus logo "meaningless."

Prometheus is an indicator of compatability. By putting the logo on a product, a publisher is saying "You can use this with other products that have this logo"--which is what d20 has come to mean, as well.

Correct. That is the intended meaning of the Prometheus logo. It does not, however, have any meaning (yet) to a consumer. It is a logo without value.

And we do have a few "3rd party publishers" who have already adopted Prometheus. I'll do a search, find a list, and poke our web guys to post a news item with the updates.

Presumably such a list will comprise more than just PDF Publishers. Until and unless the Prometheus logo is seen prominently on the cover of a print product, it will remain meaningless-- and even then, it will take a long time for it to have any value with the consumer. (A wiser angle, one might say, would be to target the Prometheus movement at the retailer and build recognition and acceptance there to rival the d20 logo.)

For what it's worth, I support Prometheus, but that doesn't preclude me from making honest observations.

Wulf