D&D 5E What is Over-Powered?

[Nergal Pendragon]

I have one of these in my game: a heavy-infantry wizard. A high-DX Necromancer who relies on Vampiric Touch/Fire Shield in combat, and a bunch of zombie bodyguards. The player plays him almost exactly like a Fighter, much to my amusement.

How is the wizard doing in combat?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

How is the wizard doing in combat?

He could be more efficient but he's doing fine. There is one special circumstance in play: his base AC is 15 due to a Robe of the Archmage they looted off the dead archmage at the start of the campaign, but you could do the same thing by taking a first level in Fighter, which would give you AC 18+.

I've realized recently that they've only been facing unsophisticated threats for the past month of dungeon-delving: it's been a long time since they even faced anything with missile weapons or with an Int higher than 6. I don't expect the wizard to do as well against a squad of allosaur-riding enkidu cavalry archers since he doesn't seem to know how to do anything but smash straight ahead, but we'll see how it goes.

 

[Hussar]

Help me understand. If your necromancer has an AC of 15 (19 with shield?), he's pretty much hittable by anything out there. He should be taking hits about 1 in 2 or 1 in 3 attacks, even at 19 AC. If he's in melee combat, why is he not dead? I know wizard's got a bit of a bump in HP, but, not that much. A pretty stock monster should be laying the slippers to this character pretty easily.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Help me understand. If your necromancer has an AC of 15 (19 with shield?), he's pretty much hittable by anything out there. He should be taking hits about 1 in 2 or 1 in 3 attacks, even at 19 AC. If he's in melee combat, why is he not dead? I know wizard's got a bit of a bump in HP, but, not that much. A pretty stock monster should be laying the slippers to this character pretty easily.

He's got +3 to AC from high DX, which can be pushed up to AC 23 when he casts Shield. He gets +9 HP from killing a foe with Vampiric Touch (plus any HP he sucks out using the spell itself), or +8 from killing someone with Fire Shield like he's taken to doing recently (hit level 7). Combined with the offensive output from his zombies, and the distraction value of having 4 other bodies in combat with you (zombie), he's at least as effective and durable as a melee fighter would be. However, he does burn through spell slots pretty quickly. (Edit: I mean "spell points." We're using the DMG spell point rule variant.)

What stock monster can you think of that would "lay the slippers" to this guy in melee range? A pack of 6 Allosaurs didn't do it. (Partly because they were more interested in food than in fighting to the death, but still, it was a good showing.)

 

[DaveDash]

Do you have any advice on controlling rest tempo, especially in a sandbox style game? I'm okay with them resting as much as they want while exploring dungeons sometimes, but I think I'd like a short arc where there is time pressure (partly to let PCs who do conserve resources shine), and I'm brainstorming ideas to make it work.

There are only two methods I have used. One is roleplaying/time constraint factors that are part of the adventure. Unfortunately this depends a lot on player buy-in. Sometimes my players have decided to push on for the sake of 'roleplaying', but other times they've decided to use the 5 minute workday to their full advantage.

The other method is making it costly for them to rest. I have told them from the get-go that if they rest in the wrong place, I *will* pull the entire dungeon on them if it makes sense to do so. In many cases however this solution doesn't make sense.

 

[Cernor]

That's the interesting thing: I'm finding that in 5E, my intuition is off, and many encounters that I would expect to be "run away!" adventures actually turn out to be 50/50 situations when I actually game them out. Monsters are weaker than I expect, relative to the official guidelines.

My intuition is also completely backwards: my players just fought Glasstaff in LMoP, and they got completely wrecked. Sure I made him an actual 4th-level wizard (having 7 spells to choose from instead of 4 also bumped his CR to 2), but he DEMOLISHED the party. After the dust settled, a "medium" encounter according to the guidelines in the DMG had 2 PC deaths and the other 2 PCs unconscious (and if he'd felt like getting his hands dirty, the two unconscious PCs would be dead as well). Comparing that to a CR 4 barbarian they fought just before (I'm... Not exactly running the book as it's written) that should've been extremely difficult but was a cakewalk, and I'm beginning to realize that CR and encounter building are extremely loose guidelines.

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

My intuition is also completely backwards: my players just fought Glasstaff in LMoP, and they got completely wrecked. Sure I made him an actual 4th-level wizard (having 7 spells to choose from instead of 4 also bumped his CR to 2), but he DEMOLISHED the party. After the dust settled, a "medium" encounter according to the guidelines in the DMG had 2 PC deaths and the other 2 PCs unconscious (and if he'd felt like getting his hands dirty, the two unconscious PCs would be dead as well). Comparing that to a CR 4 barbarian they fought just before (I'm... Not exactly running the book as it's written) that should've been extremely difficult but was a cakewalk, and I'm beginning to realize that CR and encounter building are extremely loose guidelines.

They are. There's a few monsters I would hesitate to toss at a party one level higher, let alone at the same level as the CR.

 

[Hussar]

He's got +3 to AC from high DX, which can be pushed up to AC 23 when he casts Shield. He gets +9 HP from killing a foe with Vampiric Touch (plus any HP he sucks out using the spell itself), or +8 from killing someone with Fire Shield like he's taken to doing recently (hit level 7). Combined with the offensive output from his zombies, and the distraction value of having 4 other bodies in combat with you (zombie), he's at least as effective and durable as a melee fighter would be. However, he does burn through spell slots pretty quickly. (Edit: I mean "spell points." We're using the DMG spell point rule variant.)

What stock monster can you think of that would "lay the slippers" to this guy in melee range? A pack of 6 Allosaurs didn't do it. (Partly because they were more interested in food than in fighting to the death, but still, it was a good showing.)

Well, considering Allosaurs are CR 2, and have a +6 to hit, yeah, I'd say they'd be in a bit of a jam. Needing a 17 or better to hit means they're not too effective. Although, thinking about it, why wouldn't they be splatting the zombies first? It's not like Mr. Necromancer gets to replace those at will. But let's get something in here with a bit more oomph.

Medium encounter for 7th level party (I'm assuming 4 PC's here, obviously you need to adjust for group size) - (4X750=) 3000 xp. Note, this is a medium encounter, meaning you should not be killing anyone, but, you should be smacking them around a bit. Deadly, just for my own reference is 6800.

A pair of hill giants is 5400 (Hard encounter). Attacking at range, they should get a round or two of shots before the party closes. At +8 to hit, they have a decent chance of tagging the necromancer and should be getting rid of the zombie guards pretty easily.

Manticores are one of my absolute favorite critters. At 700 xp a piece you would get 4 manticores for the same price as your allosaurus encounter. Technically a Hard encounter. But, the manticores have several advantages here. 1. They fly, meaning the zombies are out of the fight and can be ignored. 2. They get 3 ranged attacks per round. Even if it's only +5, that's 12 attacks per round. I'm going to hit. Heck, they could stand off at about 90 feet, stay out of range of the necro's spells, and bombard all day long.

2 Salamanders also fit the same budget. Granted, they'd have a bit of trouble hitting the wizard - they've got +7 attacks, meaning they'd need a 16. But, if they hit the necro, the necro has a serious problem - grappled and auto hit. And, as an added bonus, they burn up the zombie guards without having to attack them. Note, this is still a hard, not deadly encounter. Chance of dying, but, not guaranteed. Add two more salamanders, and I think the party would have a serious, serious problem.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Well, considering Allosaurs are CR 2, and have a +6 to hit, yeah, I'd say they'd be in a bit of a jam. Needing a 17 or better to hit means they're not too effective. Although, thinking about it, why wouldn't they be splatting the zombies first? It's not like Mr. Necromancer gets to replace those at will. But let's get something in here with a bit more oomph.

Medium encounter for 7th level party (I'm assuming 4 PC's here, obviously you need to adjust for group size) - (4X750=) 3000 xp. Note, this is a medium encounter, meaning you should not be killing anyone, but, you should be smacking them around a bit. Deadly, just for my own reference is 6800.

A pair of hill giants is 5400 (Hard encounter). Attacking at range, they should get a round or two of shots before the party closes. At +8 to hit, they have a decent chance of tagging the necromancer and should be getting rid of the zombie guards pretty easily.

Manticores are one of my absolute favorite critters. At 700 xp a piece you would get 4 manticores for the same price as your allosaurus encounter. Technically a Hard encounter. But, the manticores have several advantages here. 1. They fly, meaning the zombies are out of the fight and can be ignored. 2. They get 3 ranged attacks per round. Even if it's only +5, that's 12 attacks per round. I'm going to hit. Heck, they could stand off at about 90 feet, stay out of range of the necro's spells, and bombard all day long.

2 Salamanders also fit the same budget. Granted, they'd have a bit of trouble hitting the wizard - they've got +7 attacks, meaning they'd need a 16. But, if they hit the necro, the necro has a serious problem - grappled and auto hit. And, as an added bonus, they burn up the zombie guards without having to attack them. Note, this is still a hard, not deadly encounter. Chance of dying, but, not guaranteed. Add two more salamanders, and I think the party would have a serious, serious problem.

No, it was one 7th level PC (the necromancer), one 5th level PC (Shadow Monk), and one 1st level PC (Sorcerer). 6 Allosaurs was already a double-deadly encounter for them. Yes, the Allosaurs did target the zombies first, and in fact all of his zombies perished in the ensuing fight(s) (the allosaurs tried to run away when 3 were down but he pursued with his two surviving zombies), but considering the level of the opposition he did just fine.

Yes, ranged foes will take this guy down pretty easily--but weren't you the one who was just telling me in another thread that archery duels are a rare corner-case, much less hill giants throwing boulders? Hopefully that answers your question of why "stock monsters" are not killing this guy "pretty easily". He has basically the same combat profile as a heavy melee fighter. A melee fighter will die to manticore bombardment just as easily, which is why smart parties have a ranged component. Remember, this was your question:

Help me understand. If your necromancer has an AC of 15 (19 with shield?), he's pretty much hittable by anything out there. He should be taking hits about 1 in 2 or 1 in 3 attacks, even at 19 AC. If he's in melee combat, why is he not dead? I know wizard's got a bit of a bump in HP, but, not that much. A pretty stock monster should be laying the slippers to this character pretty easily.

I hope you feel it's been answered.

(And yes, I could kill the guy on a budget. I don't even need manticores. 10 hobgoblins in a fort would do the job for half the XP budget. But killing PCs on a budget isn't my job; providing a sandbox is my job.)

In any case, yes, I've mentioned a few times in this thread that the PCs are about to run into some allosaur cavalry archers this week, which will shine a spotlight on the Shadow Monk and perhaps the Sorcerer.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

They are. There's a few monsters I would hesitate to toss at a party one level higher, let alone at the same level as the CR.

Are these monsters from the official MM or other sources? I haven't found anything yet in the MM that can handle even a same-level party of four, let alone one of higher level. Well, except for Intellect Devourers and Pixies. Are those the cases you're thinking of?

My intuition is also completely backwards: my players just fought Glasstaff in LMoP, and they got completely wrecked. Sure I made him an actual 4th-level wizard (having 7 spells to choose from instead of 4 also bumped his CR to 2), but he DEMOLISHED the party. After the dust settled, a "medium" encounter according to the guidelines in the DMG had 2 PC deaths and the other 2 PCs unconscious (and if he'd felt like getting his hands dirty, the two unconscious PCs would be dead as well). Comparing that to a CR 4 barbarian they fought just before (I'm... Not exactly running the book as it's written) that should've been extremely difficult but was a cakewalk, and I'm beginning to realize that CR and encounter building are extremely loose guidelines.

Would love more details on how things shook out this way. Why didn't they just shoot him/stab him to death? Did Glassstaff win initiative and then cast Sleep or something? Did he Levitate out of their reach and they only had melee weapons? Etc.