D&D 5E What is Over-Powered?

[SirAntoine]

I don't fully understand how these various comments fit together.

Isn't weakening dragons "reducing the challenge"? In which case, you don't seem to have a problem with that.

But in any event, what counts as a challenge is mechanics-relative. In AD&D, for instance, a starting 1st level, fighter can expect to be hit by 1 in 4 or even fewer attacks (say, AC 3 vs THACO of 19 or 20, requiring a 16 or 17 to hit). In 4e the starting fighter is likely to have AC in the neighbourhood of 18 and be attacked by creatures with a +6 or more to hit, meaning that nearly half of the attacks made against him/her will hit. And the damage in AD&D is likely to be 1d6, whereas in 4e it will be more like 1d8+4.

The 5e maths are closer to 4e than AD&D: a starting AC of 16 or 18 (depending on shield use) against enemies who have +4 or so to hit and hit for 5 or more points of damage. How has the challenge been reduced?

And what exactly does any of this have to do with bringing characters to life? In that respect the strongest part of 5e seems to be its Background system.

I want to use AD&D as the standard. I think the core rules for 5th Edition should have set the challenge and power levels to this, so I want it to be brought back up with ability score generation and brought back down (where applicable) in the case of dragons being too powerful. These are my preferences anyway.

The reference to bringing characters to life is one benefit of random ability score generation with a wide field of outliers, such as given by 3d6 in order. In this way, the world comes to life more because it provides for more different kinds of characters, which is closer to reality. I could have fleshed out this point more.

I don't know how, but we have to get back to AD&D.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Still, even if you immediately kill/retire the guy right after creation, you'll still wind up with fighters being orders of magnitude more common than paladins due to the CH 17 stat requirement, even if you simply discard all 100 fighters without ever playing them. This is part of the value of stat requirements in the AD&D design: it emphasizes that the paladin is rare and special, not part of the baseline. It sets expectations for the game world that if you ever find a whole organization of paladins, you should be extremely weirded out. (It also gives implicit guidance on the right way to play a paladin: a leader like Sir Lancelot or Roland, not just some Lawful Stupid dude who knows how to cast some spells.)

An organization of Paladins is not fundamentally weirder than an organization of wizards. Individuals in both classes were presumed to have some special spark that marked them as very different from the other 99% of humanity.

As for Lancelot and Roland, they were basically Lawful Stupid.

But I do think their examples are useful because they demonstrate what I believe was the original point of the class: as a special challenge for a player who has outrageously good rolls (three or more stats of 17+), or for a player who is willing to give a sucker's play a go.

 

[PnPgamer]

Oh really? My mistake then. They still ate worse ritual casters than wizards though due to fewer spells known.

Ive actually scoured through all the ritual spells and compared them to which class gets which. Briefly said, wizards get the best rituals. And warlock who chooses tome pact with the ritual invocation ends up using only wizard rituals anyway.

Going slightly back to the topic, wizards selection of ritual spells seem better than anyone elses. For example, find familiar replaces beast sense easily.

 

[Ratskinner]

I wouldn't call it like AD&D, 1st or 2nd Edition. It is a different animal altogether, and it's all about min/maxing isn't it? Everything seems focused on having better ability score bonuses, on squeezing out every +1 you can from anywhere, and how much damage output each class can do.

I think you might be confusing online conversations with at-table play. I mean, that sort of min-maxing has been present, IME, since the earliest editions of the game.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The reference to bringing characters to life is one benefit of random ability score generation with a wide field of outliers, such as given by 3d6 in order. In this way, the world comes to life more because it provides for more different kinds of characters, which is closer to reality. I could have fleshed out this point more.

OD&D/AD&D has always been schizophrenic on what kind of "reality" it is trying to simulate. It was sold as a game where you can play Odysseus or Conan or Frodo or Merlin (or someone who might aspire to such renown, if they live long enough). But they have exactly nothing to do with the "reality" of a fair set of 3d6 rolls. As playing groups warmed to FRPs as roleplaying games, many adopted narrative conventions fitting for protagonists, both informally and formally. What is realistic to a protagonist in a heroic tale is fundamentally different from what is realistic for nameless centurion 13 in cohort 6 of legion of 11 taming the orc wilds for the Reme Empire.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Ive actually scoured through all the ritual spells and compared them to which class gets which. Briefly said, wizards get the best rituals. And warlock who chooses tome pact with the ritual invocation ends up using only wizard rituals anyway.

Going slightly back to the topic, wizards selection of ritual spells seem better than anyone elses. For example, find familiar replaces beast sense easily.

I think you should take another look at the ritual lists. There are some fine ritual divinations on the cleric list. Augury, Divination, Commune With Nature. Even Speak With Animals/Beast Sense/Locate Animals or Plants are worth having available. (Interestingly, Silence is also a ritual, though it's hard to imagine casting it as one.)
Beast Sense has a better range than Find Familiar's built-in telepathy, and will allow you to know how your familiar got squished (as opposed to just knowing that he never came back from his scouting mission).

 

[PnPgamer]

To me it just seems that using find familiar replaces speak with animal, beast sense and locate animal, and lots of others.

And silence is spiffy as a ritual. We once smashed a huge door to pieces when trying to sneak in to the room, while my cleric had silence casted as a ritual.

 

[DaveDash]

I think you should take another look at the ritual lists. There are some fine ritual divinations on the cleric list. Augury, Divination, Commune With Nature. Even Speak With Animals/Beast Sense/Locate Animals or Plants are worth having available. (Interestingly, Silence is also a ritual, though it's hard to imagine casting it as one.)
Beast Sense has a better range than Find Familiar's built-in telepathy, and will allow you to know how your familiar got squished (as opposed to just knowing that he never came back from his scouting mission).

Fighting casters, prepare silence, retreat back to it.
Fighting a lot of casters, cast silence at the door, open the door.

Anyway, silence is probably the *only* ritual during adventuring that I' have prepared as a Cleric. The rest are more for between quests back in town.

The problem with Cleric rituals is they take up a valuable prepared slot.

 

[Diamabel]

I want to use AD&D as the standard. I think the core rules for 5th Edition should have set the challenge and power levels to this, so I want it to be brought back up with ability score generation and brought back down (where applicable) in the case of dragons being too powerful. These are my preferences anyway.

The reference to bringing characters to life is one benefit of random ability score generation with a wide field of outliers, such as given by 3d6 in order. In this way, the world comes to life more because it provides for more different kinds of characters, which is closer to reality. I could have fleshed out this point more.

I don't know how, but we have to get back to AD&D.

The world comes to life because of the imagination of players, not forced RNG stats.
Feel free to return to AD&D.. it already exists. Don't try and force it on everyone.

 

[SirAntoine]

The world comes to life because of the imagination of players, not forced RNG stats.
Feel free to return to AD&D.. it already exists. Don't try and force it on everyone.

I think you're missing a lot of glory there, but I won't try and force it on you.