D&D 5E What is Quality?

[GMforPowergamers]

That's ... what ... objective ... means.

If today's temperature is 98 degrees, and yesterday it was 80 degrees, then today it is HOTTER than yesterday. The temperature is, quite literally, a fact that is dictated to you. You can't argue with it.

even this (and I totally get where you are going) isn't really objective to everyone. We made up the temperature scale and what it measures. However as objectively true that 98 is a higher number than 80 is... weather that makes it HOTTER is something I still see people argue. Is 98 rainy with a breeze hotter than 80 sunny with high humidity?

now of course this leads to "is it a dry heat?" to witch i respond "an oven is dry heat, it's still hot!!!"


II bring this up because my aunt and uncle SWEAR that 95 in arazonia is cooler than 78 in Georgia.

When I went to Las Vegas I was surprised at the heat I could stand (not saying much i no like heat...i like cold... I can always put more on, but i stay as covered as possible as a public service)


like the "what is quality" of this thread, "what is hot and what is cold" some how still causes disagreement.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Overall, I found this an interesting post, so thanks for that, seriously. I'd love to talk about emotions being evoked is definitely something to enjoy, but isn't necessarily about quality (since that's individual brain chemistry and so forth); how people don't necessarily want to glom their preferences (seems a bit general to me); how what might be arguable is the values of certain qualities over others (and not necessarily what is a quality for a certain thing) etc. It's an interesting topic, to be sure.

...
are just so unnecessarily snarky so as to make the back-and-forth not enjoyable. I don't know; maybe it's "your thing" and I am just not appreciating it, but between that and putting words in my mouth (all the "or are you sayings") my enthusiasm has just dropped a lot. I am genuinely not trying to be insulting.

I apologize (sincerely) if that was snarky. That was not my intent. This is my third post on this topic in this thread, and I have discussed this repeatedly on prior threads.

It's a subject that I do find frustrating, simply because the objective/subjective difference* is fairly stark when it comes to most things that are being discussed. In other words, if something is being discussed and argued about, it almost, by definition, cannot be something that can be objectively determined through use of an agreed-upon outside referent.

(The only reason I say almost is because, well, there are people that will argue about anything. As I have pointed out before, there is an entire thread that consists of a person arguing that working out every other day means you can work out 4 days every week. That is something that can be objectively determined, and yet ....)

The difficulty I have is that there are people, in good faith, who will argue over and over again that art, music, games, and so on ... the quality of those things can be objectively determined. But ... that's a construct that we make. We can discuss how things affect us. We can discuss things like the technical mastery required to make something. We can (and do!) have productive conversations about what we think is better designed, or what music we like better ....

Or, if you're me, you'll periodically post list of the best TV shows.

But the quality isn't something that is objective. It's something that we can have our opinions on, and it's important to be able to identify why we have those opinions (and some opinions can be better-sourced than others), but in the end the quality of something, whether something is better or worse, will be subjective.

And it's frustrating because if something was objective, then there wouldn't even be a discussion. And what fun would that be?




*There are other uses of objective and subjective, like "try to be objective when you're mediating a case," or "the goal of a good journalist is to objectively report the story," but that's different uses.

 

[Maxperson]

even this (and I totally get where you are going) isn't really objective to everyone. We made up the temperature scale and what it measures. However as objectively true that 98 is a higher number than 80 is... weather that makes it HOTTER is something I still see people argue. Is 98 rainy with a breeze hotter than 80 sunny with high humidity?

now of course this leads to "is it a dry heat?" to witch i respond "an oven is dry heat, it's still hot!!!"


II bring this up because my aunt and uncle SWEAR that 95 in arazonia is cooler than 78 in Georgia.

Humidity slows down the sweat evaporation process that cools us, so a humid heat feels hotter to us than a similar or even higher dry heat. That humidity doesn't change the objective temperature, but it does change the feel quite drastically.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

even this (and I totally get where you are going) isn't really objective to everyone. We made up the temperature scale and what it measures. However as objectively true that 98 is a higher number than 80 is... weather that makes it HOTTER is something I still see people argue. Is 98 rainy with a breeze hotter than 80 sunny with high humidity?

So ... yeah. Temperature is an objective scale. If it is 98 degrees right now, and yesterday it was 90, then it is hotter today.

Subjectively, it might feel cooler for all sorts of reasons. But temperature (whether measured in Fahrenheit, Celsius, Kelvin, or something else) is the measure of the average kinetic energy.

Now, if someone wants to get technical and say "heat isn't temperature" I would accept that. But for all practical purposes, if we accept the common understanding the measure of kinetic energy is the measure of the heat or cold, then I think we're good. (Cf. "The earth doesn't revolve around the sun, they both revolve around a point that is the center mass of the solar system").

What you are describing is a great example of the difference between objective and subjective that we often see.

Objective: 5 minutes passed while I was waiting for my test results.

Subjective: It felt like two hours before they came out with the test results!

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Humidity slows down the sweat evaporation process that cools us, so a humid heat feels hotter to us than a similar or even higher dry heat. That humidity doesn't change the objective temperature, but it does change the feel quite drastically.

and that is were weird words like 'wind chill' and 'feels like' come from. and again what you are measuring is the heat on the thermostat (or other similar device) and you come up with a number... the argument I see again and again with weather (and this applies here too) is "what difference does having a number make if that number doesn't show how it feels?"

or to put it another way, if I look at a number and it says 95 and another says 80... but I have to dress more warm for the 95 day than the 80 day, did those number actually give the information they were meant to?

 

[Maxperson]

and that is were weird words like 'wind chill' and 'feels like' come from. and again what you are measuring is the heat on the thermostat (or other similar device) and you come up with a number... the argument I see again and again with weather (and this applies here too) is "what difference does having a number make if that number doesn't show how it feels?"

Sometimes objectivity only matters as a curiosity. Whether the number makes a difference to you or not is subjective. Those numbers remain objective, though.

or to put it another way, if I look at a number and it says 95 and another says 80... but I have to dress more warm for the 95 day than the 80 day, did those number actually give the information they were meant to?

Where the hell do you live that you have to dress warm for 80 degree weather?! Both of those are shorts and t-shirt days.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So ... yeah. Temperature is an objective scale. If it is 98 degrees right now, and yesterday it was 90, then it is hotter today.

the number is objective the heat is not.

the purpose of the tempeture gage reported on the news (guessed at by weather men and women) is to prepare us for the weather. if the number is not preparing us it isn't don't it's job.

Subjectively, it might feel cooler for all sorts of reasons. But temperature (whether measured in Fahrenheit, Celsius, Kelvin, or something else) is the measure of the average kinetic energy.

yes, and the number is not a measurement of what most people think it is. the information it is meant to convay is RARELY if ever ' the average kinetic energy' but is often 'how you need to dress' and that number alone doesn't do that.

What you are describing is a great example of the difference between objective and subjective that we often see.

except outside of a scientific study, the numbers are meant to convey information that they are not always conveying

 

[payn]

and that is were weird words like 'wind chill' and 'feels like' come from. and again what you are measuring is the heat on the thermostat (or other similar device) and you come up with a number... the argument I see again and again with weather (and this applies here too) is "what difference does having a number make if that number doesn't show how it feels?"

or to put it another way, if I look at a number and it says 95 and another says 80... but I have to dress more warm for the 95 day than the 80 day, did those number actually give the information they were meant to?

Thats why humidity, cloud cover, and other factors are also included. You put the data together to figure that out. You can take a guess based on just the number though.

One thing I find strange is on a lot of sites they say things like "91, but feels like 99" what exactly does that mean? I know from experience it means humidity and cloud cover are going to effect the way it feels, but can people actually say what 85 feels like vs 89?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Where the hell do you live that you have to dress warm for 80 degree weather?! Both of those are shorts and t-shirt days.

to me (in CT New England USA) yes unless it is raining and breezy both 80 and 95 is short weather (and maybe even if it is). However again my example was my aunt and uncle who (have WAY more money than I do) travel to diffrent states and even out of the country some what regularly (I can not remember a year other then the 2020 lock down that they did not take at least 3 months of trips) travel... and as they have told me before 90's in Arizona is cooler than high 70s or low 80s in Georgia.

heck. I went to Georgia one September wearing shorts with my buddy and my girlfriend at the time... we wanted to go to the beach and wanted AC on... my dad and his wife who live down there were in coats.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

except outside of a scientific study, the numbers are meant to convey information that they are not always conveying

Yeah, that's not true.

Sure, there are other factors like humidity ("It's a dry heat!") and wind ("The wind chill will be ...") and cloud cover and precipitation (all of these are included in weather forecasts), but do you know what?

The actual temperature is kind of important. And that is an objective measure that people care a great deal about. Moreover, that is an objective measure that is kinda super important ... you know, for stuff like temperature over time ....

ETA- this is such a strange thing. Again, how people perceive something that is objectively measured doesn't change the objective measurement. Just because you might feel cold when it's 80 degrees doesn't mean you're going to argue that it's NOT 80 degrees. Nor does it mean you're going to argue that 80 degrees is LESS than 78 degrees.

Wait ... how many days do you work out each week?