D&D 5E What is Quality?

[GMforPowergamers]

No. That’s not at all what is going on. Your lived experience is, as I keep saying, subjective.

and the entire argument is about ALL of this is the difference between subjective and objective... at no point did I say "90 is lower then 80, or 5 is less then 10" what I said is how hot or cold it is isn't something that can be measured universally by a scale we made up

But you keep saying that the objective measure of temperature doesn’t convey the information. That’s wrong. It does. It conveys the objective temperature that everyone agrees upon.

and yet not everyone agree what that is

How you feel about it doesn’t change what the temperature is. Just like the number of pages in a book is objective, but whether you think it is short or long is subjective.

but the counter to "this book is too short" isn't "it's 300 pages" because the measure of that number as you just showed isn't if it is long or short.

"it hotter today in Flordia than Arazonia" being countered with "but it's 92 in Arizonan and 87 in flordia isn't a helpful argument except if you are talking about scientfic theory

 

[Maxperson]

and yet not everyone agree what that is

Not true. The objective measure IS what it is. Some people are just wrong. Mistaking how hot it feels with the actual temperature isn't a valid argument against the objectivity of the number.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The concern i have is that if every measure is subjective, not only is expertise meaningless, discussion itself rapidly becomes so as well. Who cares about what anyone thinks if every opinion is equally weighted?

my thing is that expertise only matters when it is being used properly.

If I want to messier the tempeture of something for science, using a scientific scale works. If I am trying to relay to someone if they need to dress for warm or cold weather it is only partially helpful

to bring this back around. the sales numbers and growth rate of a game are GREAT for telling us how as a business it is doing. it is only a little (if at all) useful when discussing if a mechanic works or needs to be fixed.


the problem isn't the numbers the problem is when you use true numbers but relay useless or wrong information (weather on purpose or not)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Not true. The objective measure IS what it is. Some people are just wrong. Mistaking how hot it feels with the actual temperature isn't a valid argument against the objectivity of the number.

the quote i responded to said

But you keep saying that the objective measure of temperature doesn’t convey the information. That’s wrong. It does. It conveys the objective temperature that everyone agrees upon.

"not everyone agrees on if the objective number on a man made scale is useful to the discussion of the _____" may be better.

if I say "this car doesn't get good gas milage" and you answer with "the year it came out the average mile per gallon was 23 and it is 21, so you are objectively wrong" that doesn't help if the conversation was about the 25 year old car compared to a new hybryd that gets 100 miles per gallon.

something can be true AND misleading. Something can be true in one way and not another. On a scale we made up that measures the heat on a sensor in a fixed location we can get a number. That number can be 100% correct and still be miss leading. the objective truth is much more nuanced then "The number is technically correct"

 

[HammerMan]

No. That’s not at all what is going on. Your lived experience is, as I keep saying, subjective.

This argument amuses me so much. It is an edition war level of “I am dig in and have to be correct” from all of you.

Just all agree that the argument has NOTHING to do with d&d and walk away.

Although it did teach me that the QUALITY of arguments around here about ANYTHING comes down to weird corner cases…

 

[payn]

my thing is that expertise only matters when it is being used properly.

If I want to messier the tempeture of something for science, using a scientific scale works. If I am trying to relay to someone if they need to dress for warm or cold weather it is only partially helpful

to bring this back around. the sales numbers and growth rate of a game are GREAT for telling us how as a business it is doing. it is only a little (if at all) useful when discussing if a mechanic works or needs to be fixed.


the problem isn't the numbers the problem is when you use true numbers but relay useless or wrong information (weather on purpose or not)

Well, you have scientific purposes and you have hand grenades and horseshoes. The objective number alone is fine to tell someone how to assume weather and comfort. If they really want to understand accurately, they need to dig into the heat index.

 

[HammerMan]

.


the problem isn't the numbers the problem is when you use true numbers but relay useless or wrong information (weather on purpose or not)

Three types of lies are “lies, Damn lies and statistics” right?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Well, you have scientific purposes and you have hand grenades and horseshoes. The objective number alone is fine to tell someone how to assume weather and comfort. If they really want to understand accurately, they need to dig into the heat index.

yeah... and again this entire sub argument is really about the main argument... the "is quality measurable by sales or growth" is just as easy to see with "If I give you a number is that going to tell you what you need to know" even if the number is right.

Just all agree that the argument has NOTHING to do with d&d and walk away.

as I just said above it only SEEMS off topic, it is still the same thing. something can be objectively TRUE and Not helpful.

I am not arguing your thermostat is broken when it reads 60 or 80... I am arguing that 'if I wear shorts or jeans' requires more information

 

[payn]

yeah... and again this entire sub argument is really about the main argument... the "is quality measurable by sales or growth" is just as easy to see with "If I give you a number is that going to tell you what you need to know" even if the number is right.

Yeah, I get that. My entire stance in this thread has been, thats like pointing to one single number and telling a whole entire story about it. When somebody does that; shame on them. If you believe it and don't challenge it; shame on you.

 

[Umbran]

This all seems to hinge on the rather fantastic claim that you could even write such a program. I certainly am totally unaware of any advancement in computing that could handle a program that could even come close to mimicking, much less simulating, all of the options players and GMs could take in even tightly constrained RPGs. Something like 5e, where even the rules applicable are malleable? No. This is a ridiculous claim.

No, it isn't at all ridiculous. Roll20 is already much of the way there. What remains are mostly things that videogames already know how to do, but are probably not computationally convenient in the Roll20 architecture.

The vast majority of the seemingly infinite options are GM judgements - typically choices about whether a thing is possible, and if so, what skill applies and at what DC. Since the rules do not give us these, they are not part of the rules complexity we are trying to measure! Our game only has to handle resolving the check once the GM has declared it must be made.

Indeed, even doing this as a thought experiment reveals to us something useful - the difference between how much of the complexity we experience at the table is because of the game engine, and how much of it is our own making.