D&D 5E What is REALLY wrong with the Wizard? (+)

[Zubatcarteira]

No spell is really Wizard exclusive, since the Bard's Magical Secrets exist, and there are a lot of subclasses that can get spells from others, like Arcana Clerics.

 

[ECMO3]

sure gandalf is powerful but here's a question: how many times does gandalf actually use serious magic in that trilogy? and for extra fun count gandalf the white as having had a long rest and restored his spell slots, Yes gandalf is powerful but he isn't throwing out fireballs every combat, charm person-ing the social encounters and stoneshaping open the door to moria, he doesn't have nearly the same casting capacity as a DnD wizard does and that's where i think the disconnect arises, expecting the power of gandalf but not the frequency.

I would disagree with this if you pay attention to the details in the books and put them in perspective. Gandalf is dominating almost everything whenever he is present. When we see others being heroic it is largely because Gandalf is absent. In D&D parlance they split the party and he took the more important mission, that is when the non-Wizards are the center of the attention in LOTR.

He is even dominating social situations - just look at the magical fireworks and Bilbo's party at the begining of FOTR. Imagine you were playing Frodo or Pippin at Bilbo's party - are you really going to suggest Gandalf did not outshine you? As a matter of fact he got angry the one time someone else at the party used magic and was the center of attention (when Bilbo disappeared at his party) ..... and it was Bilbo's party!

Gandalf magically freed Theodin from his curse. When they were holed up in Helms Deep Gandalf took his presumably charmed horse and rode it with unatural speed to go find the renegade Riders of Rohan and free the siege at Helms Deep, appearing back again at just the right time.

At Rivendell, Gandalf led the discussions on what to do with the ring and made the final decision to keep it with Frodo for the trip to Mt. Doom.

None of the other characters did or could have done many of those things and on the other hand Gandalf could largely have accomplished most of what they did do (prophecies surrounding the ring itself notwithstanding). If Gandalf was not at Theodin's court no one would have freed him from the charm, but on the other hand if Gandalf was at Weathertop instead of Aragorn, I think they would have done at least as well, maybe better even. Frodo would have almost certainly made it to Rivendell quicker and in fact it was Gandalf that put the magical flaming horses on the river that swept away the orcs chasing Frodo and ultimately secured his passage. Literally, he showed up and fixed an otherwise dire and challenging situation when other characters were struggling and one was about to die.

The ONLY times Gandalf did not steal the show when he was present is when he had Pipin climb the tower to light the signal fire (I guess he was out of 3rd level slots).

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Gandalf is a godlike being who's older than the universe, the problem is less wizard and more that his DM allowed the overpowered Maiar race, big mistake.

 

[Scribe]

sure gandalf is powerful but here's a question: how many times does gandalf actually use serious magic in that trilogy? and for extra fun count gandalf the white as having had a long rest and restored his spell slots, Yes gandalf is powerful but he isn't throwing out fireballs every combat, charm person-ing the social encounters and stoneshaping open the door to moria, he doesn't have nearly the same casting capacity as a DnD wizard does and that's where i think the disconnect arises, expecting the power of gandalf but not the frequency.

And how many times is he just mixing it up with staff and sword.

"Let them use slings."

The problem (if one feels/agrees is up to them) is that they just removed the restrictions. Its a hype train with no brakes.

Slap back on the restrictions they had in prior editions, and you mitigate a lot of this in my opinion.

Damage cantrips....

 

[Mind of tempest]

And how many times is he just mixing it up with staff and sword.

"Let them use slings."

The problem (if one feels/agrees is up to them) is that they just removed the restrictions. Its a hype train with no brakes.

Slap back on the restrictions they had in prior editions, and you mitigate a lot of this in my opinion.

Damage cantrips....

damage cantrips are not a problem and the past restriction would just be bypass like spell components as no one like them.

we need a restriction that you know might be favourable or too hard to bypass.

 

[ECMO3]

Gandalf is a godlike being who's older than the universe, the problem is less wizard and more that his DM allowed the overpowered Maiar race, big mistake.

See but it is not a mistake. The story and the book are fun for most people despite that. 5E is the same way IME. Powerful wizards improve the fun for everyone at the table!

I get it that not everyone has this experience, but I would estimate well over 90% of players at a table with Wizards do. I can think of a few of times in 5E, both as a player and DM, where I wished the table did not have a certain character, but for my experiences, that character has to date never even been a Wizard.

 

[ECMO3]

And how many times is he just mixing it up with staff and sword.

Like a Bladesinger!

 

[Mind of tempest]

See but it is not a mistake. The story and the book are fun for everyone despite that. 5E is the same way IME. Powerful wizards improve the fun for everyone at the table!

I get it that not everyone has this experience, but I would estimate over 90% of players at a table with Wizards do.

a book is different from Charles hogging the spotlight as the main character in an ensemble game, different media works differently.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

See but it is not a mistake. The story and the book are fun for most people despite that. 5E is the same way IME. Powerful wizards improve the fun for everyone at the table!

I get it that not everyone has this experience, but I would estimate well over 90% of players at a table with Wizards do. I can think of a few of times in 5E, both as a player and DM, where I wished the table did not have a certain character, but for my experiences, that character has to date never even been a Wizard.

Why Wizards, then? If Gandalf was called a Bard, Druid, Warlock, Sorcerer or Cleric, would you say those classes should be more powerful than others? He has about as much to do with those as with the D&D Wizard.

 

[ECMO3]

a book is different from Charles hogging the spotlight as the main character in an ensemble game, different media works differently.

This is true whether Charles is a Wizard or a Fighter or a Rogue and in my experience it has not been a Wizard doing this at a table yet.

And while the media is different, at the root they are both trying to tell a story and it is that story is supposed to be entertaining for those partaking in it.