D&D 5E What is REALLY wrong with the Wizard? (+)

[DND_Reborn]

Note this is the exact problem. Tier two characters in a Tier one environment. The Heroes of the Realm should not be doing such small mundane things.

It isn't a problem at all, unless it is in your view point?

"Heroes of the Realm" might have a 300' wide chasm to traverse in order to head of an advance party of an army that threatens a city or even a kingdom. Time is of the essence and they are 7th level. Hours matter, if not minutes. So, will climbing down, crossing, and climbing up, which wastes such valuable time be done? Not by the Wizard who casts dimension door, leaving most of the party behind. The fighter, rogue, etc. don't have the time to go around the chasm, which could take most of a day, so they must risk a fast and perilous climb as the chasm is 200 feet deep or more, hoping they can make it in time.

That is how tier 2 characters might have to deal with a "tier one environment" --- as you call it.

Really a lot of this problem is on the DM. The PCs are Super Heroes and the DM says here is a super easy cake walk adventure for some characters like the wizard. Then the DM says "wizards must be the problem".

LOL they aren't "Super Heroes" until tier 4.

But yes, magic (not solely wizards) is a problem when you have martials classes, which 5E has designed to be fairly mundane in many ways, who have to face a "mundane" challenge in a scenario where it becomes all but impossible for them--but not for the caster/wizard.

So, blaming the DM (as you seem to be doing) is not the right approach. Balancing the game in more meaningful ways is better IMNSHO. You can either "magic-up" martials to the point they can do things akin to magic, or nerf magic to the point that it isn't a viable "be-all-end-all" for challenges.

The flaw is D&D is not designed for Low Magic. IF you wanted to have a Low Magic world, the FIRST thing you would need to start with nearly ALL the player character abilities, but mostly magic ones and spells.

True, it is design for "medium" magic, but not across the board. It is low magic in tier 1, medium magic in tier 2, high magic in tier 3, and god/super-hero magic in tier 4. Meanwhile, non-casters basically drop off at tier 2 and flatline for the most part. Their power-levels do not advance at anywhere near the same rate as casters overall due to the magic casters have.

You might find scaling up the game works well for you too. I like high magic, but you can do it with low magic. You would need to jump through a lot of hoops to explain why mundane smoke, dirt or mud would ''tone down" the wizard....but you could do it.

My preference (as stated before) is too scale down magic to the level where at worst medium magic happens. This allows martials in tier 2 to remain equal, and both types to advance in power more at a rate to my liking. Why do you think most games stop at 10th level or around there? Sure, interest wains, but many DMs IME don't want super-ultra-uber-fantastic-adventures with PCs who can literally alter reality. YMMV, of course...

So, easy solution: stop class advancement around 10th level. Allow PCs to gain feats or other perks as they continue to adventure, but nothing to the point of what I call "high magic" (6th+ level spells).

Slightly more complex solution: stop class advancement around 15th (so PCs can still handle threats like beholders, liches, and perhaps even an ancient dragon with proper numbers/support), but slow down spells so they hit 5th level spells around 12-13 level.

If you want a "LotR" games, you need to eliminate almost ALL the Player Characters abilities. No one mortal in LotR has any "special powers''.

Yeah, I completely disagree with that, but it isn't worth arguing about. You do you.

But then even LotR is broken. Remember when "Strider" drove away the attacking Witch King with a burning stick...er, how did that work?

As I am not Tolkien or Jackson, I couldn't tell you. Perhaps Strider has undead as a favored enemy and knows the Ringwraiths can be repelled by courage, shown when he boldly advances on them, swinging the fire simply so he can see them more clearly?

Oh and why did not the Fellowship just fly to Mt Doom on them giant eagles? Lots of things are just "not done" so the story goes on.

Sauron might have seen them coming and prepared for them? Remember they were trying to be secretive about their mission??? Flying over lands for leagues and leagues might just give them away.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

No, but it is anecdotal to say it is a problem and that it causes the game to be less fun.

You've never been a martial who was made useless by a Wizard casting a single spell, then.

 

[ECMO3]

You've never been a martial who was made useless by a Wizard casting a single spell, then.

NEVER, EVER in 5E have I had this happen and not been happy about it. And I have played a bunch of martials and a bunch of Wizards in 5E at a bunch of different tables with around 20 different DMs, in addition to DMing myself, and I have never seen it.

I will go even further - in every case I have seen to date, the players are ecstatic when the wizard, or for that matter any PC, makes an encounter trivial. The DM is not always happy about it, but IME to date the players ALWAYS have been happy about it.

Now that is my experience and it includes over 1000 gaming sessions with 5E, but based on posts here, I know that others have had other experiences.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

NEVER, EVER in 5E. And I have played a bunch of martials and a bunch of Wizards in 5E at a bunch of different tables with over 20 different DMs, in addition to DMing myself. And I have never seen it.

Cool.

That's about as anecdotal as it gets, though.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I think you need to go back and read this "entire" thread. As a simple example; your last post that I replied to and the post I am replying to now do not do this.

Again this is objectively and undeniably a false statement and ironically your very own post is one of the many examples that make it objectively untrue.

So in other words...

'lol no'.

Okay then. We're done.

 

[ECMO3]

So in other words...

'lol no'.

Okay then. We're done

No not "lol no" but rather, you are just factually wrong.

 

[Gubber Bittencourt]

this enters the list of complaints that only exist on the Internet.

I HAVE NEVER SEEN A TABLE THAT PREFERS TO HAVE A SORCERER THAN A WIZARD.

That said, it is necessary to limit some spells. (fireball is not one of them) wall of force, Banishment. are examples of anti confrontation spells that break a climax more than they build.

 

[Gubber Bittencourt]

Cool.

That's about as anecdotal as it gets, though.

Any opinion here is anecdote.

or are you reporting that someone actually did scientific research on the subject?

 

[Azuresun]

Pretty much, yes. 3.5's Tome of Battle, and all of 4e, was designed to make "non-magical" classes ("Martial" has become a loaded term, IMO) more balanced against their magic-using allies. But a very vocal part of the D&D community rejected these ideas, wanting Fighters to be guys with no special abilities other than "hit stuff good" "have lots of hit points" and "wear heavy armor".

Thing is, I have almost never seen those discussions talk about "magic using" classes. It is always the friggin' wizards. Not sorcerers or warlocks. Barely ever clerics. Only certain specific builds of druid or bard, usually those dipping into the best wizard spells.

This suggests that excessively versatile and themeless wizards with no reason not to just grab the best skills from every school are the problem. And though powercreeping everything to to match the outlier is the instinct of players, it's also probably the worse way to balance.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

Any opinion here is anecdote.

or are you reporting that someone actually did scientific research on the subject?

Look at the amount of spells that are in the game.

Then look at many things Fighters can do.

Like, Wizards factually have more abilities they can use than Fighters. It's no contest. And with more abilities, they come more ways to solve problems.