D&D 5E What is REALLY wrong with the Wizard? (+)

[tetrasodium]

My dude, at low levels AoO are all the "sticky" you need. A 7hp goblin can't risk a single hit.

an creature can dash in circles around an opponent without triggering an AoO. Even if it does trigger a single AoO 5e monsters are tuned with low AC & tons of HP to ensure that it doesn't really matter

 

[James Gasik]

My dude, at low levels AoO are all the "sticky" you need. A 7hp goblin can't risk a single hit.

But an Orc can with 15 hit points. A CR 1/2 Thug has 32 hit points! A Drow Elf, with the same CR as the goblin has 13 hit points and can drop Darkness on your melee.

 

[Redwizard007]

an creature can dash in circles around an opponent without triggering an AoO. Even if it does trigger a single AoO 5e monsters are tuned with low AC & tons of HP to ensure that it doesn't really matter

Tons of HP? Goblins have 7. Bandits and cultists get 9. A black bear 19. The cockatrice has 27. Mephits 17. Giant spiders 11. Gnolls 22. There is no way an intelligent creature with single digit HP will willingly tank an AoO, and all of these should be fleeing combat after 2 to 3 hits at most. The only way this looks like tons of HP is if you have a party of bards facing off against gnolls.

 

[Redwizard007]

But an Orc can with 15 hit points. A CR 1/2 Thug has 32 hit points! A Drow Elf, with the same CR as the goblin has 13 hit points and can drop Darkness on your melee.

The thug is just insane, and I had forgotten them. I'll grant you that one.

The orc and drow are still falling to 2-3 hits from 1st level PCs, less if optimized. I wouldn't expect them to willingly face-tank an AoE.

 

[tetrasodium]

Tons of HP? Goblins have 7. Bandits and cultists get 9. A black bear 19. The cockatrice has 27. Mephits 17. Giant spiders 11. Gnolls 22. There is no way an intelligent creature with single digit HP will willingly tank an AoO, and all of these should be fleeing combat after 2 to 3 hits at most. The only way this looks like tons of HP is if you have a party of bards facing off against gnolls.

Correct me if I skipped one, those are all CR1/2 or less creatures yes? Most of those are already able to take more than one hit & you really haven't even gotten beyond monsters for low level parties. LMOP runs to like level 4 or 5, are you considering that an end game full on campaign or something?

 

[Micah Sweet]

i pick the fighter for the class fantasy of it.
the fantasy of being a fighter is not that of being second banana to the wizard, it is one of being a muscled one-man-army tornado of steel and death who can endure the hammering blow of a titan and brush off the inferno breath of a red dragon with hp to spare.
i don't want to be told when my fighter doesn't match up to the wizard's capabilities in different but equal ways that 'well you made the choice to be lesser', no i didn't, that just came as an unwanted attatched strings to the thing i actually wanted.

You know, I love that archetype of the one-man-army fighter, but you don't really see them in situations that also include a fantasy wizard in situations where the wizard isn't  clearly being narratively restrained. That kind of fighter really needs to shine alone.

 

[Redwizard007]

Correct me if I skipped one, those are all CR1/2 or less creatures yes? Most of those are already able to take more than one hit & you really haven't even gotten beyond monsters for low level parties. LMOP runs to like level 4 or 5, are you considering that an end game full on campaign or something?

That was a response to this

Most of those are higher than level 1, which was my point; it's very hard to be able to effectively defend spellcasters at low levels..

He was concerned about tanking at low levels, so I went fishing for low level monsters. Regardless of level, 5e monsters tend to go down fast.

For higher levels, yes they can take an AoO without to much worry, but the other means of being sticky shine. From level 1 to 20, a typical creature of CR equal to the party lives less than 2 rounds. Every one of their attacks matter.

There are lots of ways to be "sticky," from AoOs, inflicting disadvantage on attacks, negating hits, negating damage, granting advantage to your attackers, debuffing speed, forced movement, and more. Some are easier to pull off than others, but martials have access to loads of options.

 

[James Gasik]

About those Goblins, since they can Disengage as a bonus action, I don't think they need to worry about opportunity attacks anyways.

 

[CreamCloud0]

You know, I love that archetype of the one-man-army fighter, but you don't really see them in situations that also include a fantasy wizard in situations where the wizard isn't  clearly being narratively restrained. That kind of fighter really needs to shine alone.

I think part of the issue is that both fighter and wizard are performing the same task in the same scenario of defeating enemies, just that the fighter stabs and the wizard fireballs, they need parallel tasks to properly shine, where the fighter is holding the literal endless hoards of undead at bay while the wizard is behind them figuring out some arcane lock or barrier or casting the minute long emergency teleport to get them all out of there.
Where they’re both performing equally important but completely different kinds of tasks.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think part of the issue is that both fighter and wizard are performing the same task in the same scenario of defeating enemies, just that the fighter stabs and the wizard fireballs, they need parallel tasks to properly shine, where the fighter is holding the literal endless hoards of undead at bay while the wizard is behind them figuring out some arcane lock or barrier or casting the minute long emergency teleport to get them all out of there.
Where they’re both performing equally important but completely different kinds of tasks.

Absolutely. But you can't arrange that short of narrative controls, what with free will and all.