D&D General What is the appeal of Tolkien fantasy races?

[TheSword]

but his dwarves owe more to the Forgotten Realms than they do to Tolkien.

Well you are entitled to your sourceless assumptions. It is the internet after all.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Well you are entitled to your sourceless assumptions. It is the internet after all.

You certainly don't have any problem making sourceless assumptions, however, if you can't see the parts of Pratchett that are obvious D&D parodies, here is a quote for you:

“That reminds me why I gave up Dungeons and Dragons. There were too many monsters. Back in the old days you could go around a dungeon without meeting much more than a few orcs and lizard men, but then everyone started inventing monsters and pretty soon it was a case of bugger the magic sword, what you really need to be the complete adventurer was the Marcus L. Rowland fifteen-volume guide to Monsters and the ability to read very, very fast, because if you couldn’t recognize them from the outside you pretty soon got the chance to try looking at them from the wrong side of their tonsils.” - Terry Pratchett

 

[TheSword]

I think you’re mistaking burden of proof. When making statements I’m not required to prove that a link doesn’t exist. If you want to be credible you have to demonstrate that a link does exist.

If all you’ve got is Pratchet played D&D for a while therefore Disc World is based on D&D then I’m afraid you have a long way to go.

Can you spot specific attributable things in the books that were taken from D&D rather than the source material that inspired D&D or Pratchetts own creativity.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think you’re mistaking burden of proof.

No, I'm not.

If this was an intellectual property lawsuit, proving prior familiarity with the material would be pretty central.

When making statements I’m not required to prove that a link doesn’t exist.

Because you are God and therefore able to say whatever you want?!

You are claiming that someone who was self admittedly familiar with D&D before writing (the quote clearly indicates he played in the 70s) could write about D&D tropes without being influenced by D&D doesn't just require proof, it's quite impossible.

Can you spot specific attributable things in the books that were taken from D&D rather than the source material that inspired D&D or Pratchetts own creativity.

As I suspect you are well aware Pratchett was a deconstructorbot, so even though he deconstructs D&D elves in Lords and Ladies, dwarves in The Fifth Elephant, orcs in Unseen Academicals and goblins in Snuff, there is nothing that the wilfully obtuse couldn't argue isn't inspired by D&D, in the same way that they argue that The Life of Brian has nothing to do with the New Testament.

 

[TheSword]

No, I'm not.

If this was an intellectual property lawsuit, proving prior familiarity with the material would be pretty central.


Because you are God and therefore able to say whatever you want?!

You are claiming that someone who was self admittedly familiar with D&D before writing (the quote clearly indicates he played in the 70s) could write about D&D tropes without being influenced by D&D doesn't just require proof, it's quite impossible.

As I suspect you are well aware Pratchett was a deconstructorbot, so even though he deconstructs D&D elves in Lords and Ladies, dwarves in The Fifth Elephant, orcs in Unseen Academicals and goblins in Snuff, there is nothing that the wilfully obtuse couldn't argue isn't inspired by D&D, in the same way that they argue that The Life of Brian has nothing to do with the New Testament.

I think you would know that lords and ladies elves are far more fey than d&d elves, more akin to Eladrin, that weren’t published in d&d until much later. There is little a d&d elf player would recognize in the highborn elves of Pratchett.

The fifth elephant dwarves and later books you mentioned deconstruct Tolkien’s dwarves as much as anything else.

The link between the New Testament and life of Brian is direct and obvious. Unless you know of any other stories based on a messiah in the Nazareth, where there is a sermon on the mount?

Obviously not the case with Pratchett.

I can’t actually believe that you think I should have to prove that Pratchett didn’t reference D&D from his works. You understand the logical issue with trying to prove a negative right?

As I said, can you reference anything that Pratchett uses that only exists in D&D? Anything at all? I’d be interested if you can and would happily concede the point.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's because it Tolkein nothing else has had the same cultural impact.


Sets are still there.

 

[Bohandas]

Elves, dwarves, and goblins were staples of fantasy and fairytale literature long before Tolkien.

Not sure what the appeal of hobbits and their various knockoffs is though. Their whole thing was that, with the exception of Bilbo's extended family, they were all boring. And they don't fit into any setting either. They don't even fit into Middle Earth. They just kind of show up without explanation at the very end of the Silmarillion.

I think that the core races of d&d with perhaps the exception of Dragonborn, tieflings and half Orcs are well established cultures in fiction, film and legend.

Halflings/hobbits are an exception as well

 

[Bohandas]

Reptile-people are also pretty iconic, at least in my generation. We grew up watching the Kirk fighting the Gorn and Enik the Sleestak giving bulbous side-eye to Rick Marshall over his matrix table skills.

I’m really sorry but an enemy in one book series, or a couple of Star Trek enemies does not make a race ubiquitous or indeed imprint it on the social consciousness unless that series is huge. I don’t believe even Tolkein did that without the support of other writers picking up where he left off.

You've both got to remember that lizard people figure into folklore as well. It's just that it's mostly modern folklore. Or rather conspiracy theories. When it's not the Illuminati, the deep state, a religious group, or the freemasons, the lizard people will be the ones who supposedly run the government and the media.

 

[TheSword]

You've both got to remember that lizard people figure into folklore as well. It's just that it's mostly modern folklore. Or rather conspiracy theories. When it's not the Illuminati, the deep state, a religious group, or the freemasons, the lizard people will be the ones who supposedly run the government and the media.

I guess my point wasn’t about whether the myths exist. It’s also about their prevalence in media. Books, film, TV...

 

[Bohandas]

There's also the Elder Scrolls videogame series. And the Gex videogame series. And commercials for car insurance from Geico.