What is the best save?

[Nail]

Re: True; my apologies to everyone else.

I don't suppose I would earn back any Maturity points by pointing out that he 'started it'?

What's that thing dad always used to say to us kids in the back seat? ......"I don't care who started it! Do you want me to pull this thing over?!"

We got awful quiet after that....usually.
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Now, madman75, don't go "spoiling th' love".....

 

[Ratama]

Re: Re: True; my apologies to everyone else.

We got awful quiet after that....usually.

Let me guess; the times you didn't were when you rolled a 1 on your Will save vs Parenting.

See? Broken as all heck.

PS- Auraseer, I don't hate the Sage; far from it. I'm merely of the *opinion* that his impending firing might have adversely affected some of his rulings.

However, the Natural Save issue flies right in the face of the SRD, and *that* trumps the FAQ from a legal standpoint, regardless of opinion on the matter.

On issues like the Sage's Divine Might ruling, which isn't in the SRD, then the FAQ *might* reign supreme, depending on how you value Errata vs FAQ vs Orginal Material.

 

[maddman75]

You're right. I shouldn't be calling anyone an RPGnet refugee. Its just too cruel .

It isn't that you disagreed with the sage. My own theory is that the sage uniformly rules for 'whatever will screw the players.' Its the way you stated your opinion, that saves should autofail, as if anyone who dared to disagree with your mighty wisdom is deranged, barely literate, and likely to eat his own young.

 

[Ratama]

The Sage

Well, that's the thing; the Divine Might ruling generally helps players at least as much as it potentially hurts them, I think.

I should also note that I *like* the idea of making the Divine feats free actions or not-an-action actions, but rule changes like that shouldn't be made based solely on what side of the bed Skip woke up on.

I honestly think that the pressure of watching WotC get eaten alive by Hasbro from the ground floor affected his rulings at the end (watching your friends getting fired from their dream jobs must really, really suck).

 

[Nail]

Re: Re: Re: True; my apologies to everyone else.

Let me guess; the times you didn't were when you rolled a 1 on your Will save vs Parenting.

See? Broken as all heck.

Oh, definately not. It was the -2 circumstance penalty that would often get us.

We'd miss the roll by one, and then siliently curse the GM........and yer sister, who had just slipped an elbow into yer ribs.

 

[AuraSeer]

Re: Re: Re: True; my apologies to everyone else.

However, the Natural Save issue flies right in the face of the SRD, and *that* trumps the FAQ from a legal standpoint, regardless of opinion on the matter.

What exactly do you mean by "legal" ?

Assuming you don't trust the Sage, there exists no central authority that dictates the officialness of rules. It's impossible to say whether the FAQ counts as "legal" rules, since there is no trusted party to dictate "legality".

In other words:
If you do not agree that there is an ultimate authority on rules, then it's meaningless to argue which rules are "legal" in absolute terms. Your assertion that the SRD always "legally" trumps the FAQ therefore makes no sense.

If you do agree that WOTC is the ultimate authority on rules, then you implicitly agree that their interpretations are "legal". Since their forum for interpreting rules issues is the FAQ, the FAQ must be a "legal" rules source.

Pick the one you like better, but either way your position is totally unsupported.

 

[melkoriii]

Re: Re: Natural Saves

As it's quasi-official by WotC-Standards (Sage Reply says so, several of their Rulebooks say so) and it makes sense, most here on the board consider it official.

Ratama is right. Core is no suto save/fail on saves.

 

[Nail]

Re: Re: Re: Re: True; my apologies to everyone else.

If you do agree that WOTC is the ultimate authority on rules, then you implicitly agree that their interpretations are "legal". Since their forum for interpreting rules issues is the FAQ, the FAQ must be a "legal" rules source.

"Legal" seems like a poor word choice.

The beef I have is that the SRD and the FAQ (and the errata) are not consistant. If I say "Core Rules" (and I'm not currently talking about the movie, jonrog1!), what, exactly do I mean? ...Could be plenty of things......

And how many times have you either heard or typed "Show me the rule that says...."

Where does one find "those" rules?

 

[melkoriii]

Re: Re: Re: Re: True; my apologies to everyone else.

What exactly do you mean by "legal" ?

Assuming you don't trust the Sage, there exists no central authority that dictates the officialness of rules. It's impossible to say whether the FAQ counts as "legal" rules, since there is no trusted party to dictate "legality".

In other words:
If you do not agree that there is an ultimate authority on rules, then it's meaningless to argue which rules are "legal" in absolute terms. Your assertion that the SRD always "legally" trumps the FAQ therefore makes no sense.

If you do agree that WOTC is the ultimate authority on rules, then you implicitly agree that their interpretations are "legal". Since their forum for interpreting rules issues is the FAQ, the FAQ must be a "legal" rules source.

Pick the one you like better, but either way your position is totally unsupported.

By "legal" I belive he is meaning that the SRD is what WotC has made by US Law "legal" Because of the OGL. Granted they can change that till it is finalized but as of now all D20 games are legal by following the SRD.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Will saves can be as deadly as death effects. Hold person should be death but most DM's let the PCs live because save or die effects based on fortitude don't come up until 5th level spell. Being dominated is worse than death for your fellow party members.

The thing about Will saves effects is most of them are fixable with a spell. A simple Remove Paralysis spell takes care Hold Person. Protecion from Evil or Magic Circle Against Evil stops Domination. Disintegrate, Slay Living, and Implosion are less forgiving (once you reach those lofty levels).

Will effects would be just about as bad as Fort effects if you were playing solo. D&D was really designed as a team game.

The real reasons, say, Hold Person doesn't usually result in death are (1) your teammates protect you or cast Remove Paralysis immediately, and (2) it not usually in the personal interest of the mooks to CDG because the other heroes are a bigger immediate threat.

Nonetheless, I rated Will as more important simply because of frequency. Failing a Fort save is probably worse, but having a poor Will save bonus is bad, bad news.