What is the best save?

[Ratama]

Actually, situations like a party member being Dominated by an NPC caster that's higher level than the party are the worst, imho.

Best case scenario then is that a party caster wastes an action and a Greater Dispelling, instead of targetting the offending NPC.

It's only, what, 13k for a scroll of True Resurrection? At level 14+, that's practically free (considering the alternatives).

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Re: Saves

BTW, what attitude of mine, exactly, are you referring to?

Your stupidity, would be my guess.

Don't restrain yourself, if you really feel the need to attack me. I'm sure I can defend myself; the truth is a powerful weapon.

BTDT, GTFTS.

 

[Ratama]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Saves

Your stupidity, would be my guess.

You guess??? I thought it was obvious!

BTDT, GTFTS.

W, TKMA, MF.

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Saves

You guess??? I thought it was obvious!

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt as regards your stupidity.

W, TKMA, MF.

AFW does this better than you.


Hong "and they have the zucchinis to prove it" Ooi

 

[Victim]

Deathward takes care of most save or die effects.

And it's possible using delay or ready to set up dominate or hold combos that mostly circumvent the spells that could be used to thwart will effects. If the bad guys coup de grace a held party member before any character has a chance to act, then all the Remove Paralysis in the world won't save them.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Deathward takes care of most save or die effects.

And it's possible using delay or ready to set up dominate or hold combos that mostly circumvent the spells that could be used to thwart will effects. If the bad guys coup de grace a held party member before any character has a chance to act, then all the Remove Paralysis in the world won't save them.

Deathward will help you against the majority of the worst effects. But once you get to levels where the whole party is that well warded, you will see plenty of Blindness, poisons galore, Polymorph Other, Flesh to Stone, Disintegrate, and possibly Horrid Wilting and Implosion.

While I agree it is not technically difficult to set up instant deaths with Will effects, it is almost always very ugly metagaming to do so. If you going to go through the trouble to game the initiative system to chalk up a PC kill why bother with spells? If every NPC on the battlemat consistently attacks a single PC you will get plenty of PC deaths. This works especially well if all the NPCs delay and coordinate their actions with the benefit of the DM imposed hive mind.

 

[Iku Rex]

Re: lol

So I supposed you accepted the Sage's 'official' house ruling on Divine Might, and his Dragon Disciple wafflings?

I'm not sure what you mean by "the Sage's 'official' house ruling on Divine Might". Are you referring to his e-mail ruling stating that it's activated as a standard action? Or are you talking about the FAQ entry by WotC stating that "using" it is "not an action" and that each "use" requires a turn undead attempt? The later ruling is obviously nonsense, but it's still "official".

Nor do I understand what you mean by "Dragon Disciple wafflings" either. The FAQ entry regarding the Dragon Disciple seems clear enough.

My guess is that you're confusing the FAQ (official document published by WotC) with Skip's e-mail rulings. The FAQ is not just Skip's baby, it's a "team effort". (Or so we've been told.)

How about this approach; both the SRD and the FAQ are 'official' documents posted on the official site.

The SRD actually has actual legal muscle, and is the official rules set for the D20 system and all D20 publishers.

We're not talking about some random "D20 system" game. We're talking about Dungeons and Dragons.

And most of the SRD doesn't even incorporate the errata from fall 2000, much less later errata and clarifications.

In fact, legally a D20 publisher couldn't even use the FAQ's house rules unless the SRD was updated with them. You might want to check these little details next time.

So, in your opinion any d20 publisher has to use the mistakes from the first printing of the PH? If they incorporate later errata in a product they will be sued by WotC?

If you won't accept the official D20 rules as, eh, official, that's your problem.

Do you even understand the nature of "errata"? Do you consider the errata separately published on WotCs web site (excluding the errata in the FAQ) official?

Your claim that errata has to be physically incorporated into the product where the mistake occurred in the first place, in order to be "official" is completely absurd.

Edit: editted for boorishness. Refer to the following post if you are curious as to the exact nature of said antisocial behaviour of mine.

Don't hold back on my account.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Put down the axe, boys!

Now to reiterate: auto1/20 for saves isn't that different from 1/20 for attack rolls. A low-level cleric successfully casting hold person on an epic character (say, a pal/cleric with about 100 levels and cha and wis like the gods) should be as unlikely as a child hitting that "tank" (a fighter 2000 in his +100 Armor). If the one should be impossible, the other one should be as well (and vice versa).
So much for "stupid rules"

The books I was referring to are Deities and Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook. Reading that and the FAQ I came to the conclusion that the guys forgot about saves in the Core Printings, and put it into the FAQ.

 

[IceBear]

Put down the axe, boys!

Now to reiterate: auto1/20 for saves isn't that different from 1/20 for attack rolls. A low-level cleric successfully casting hold person on an epic character (say, a pal/cleric with about 100 levels and cha and wis like the gods) should be as unlikely as a child hitting that "tank" (a fighter 2000 in his +100 Armor). If the one should be impossible, the other one should be as well (and vice versa).
So much for "stupid rules"

The books I was referring to are Deities and Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook. Reading that and the FAQ I came to the conclusion that the guys forgot about saves in the Core Printings, and put it into the FAQ.

My conclusion too as that's the way that it's been since....always.

If Epic Level characters were involved, I would use the optional rules for open ended dice rolls for saving throws and attack rolls (I might just use that anyway) as I can see times where the 5% chance is still too high.

Edit: As to whether or not the revised rules will make the natural 1/20 "core", a look at the d20 Modern rules is probably a BIG hint.

SAVING THROWS

Generally, when a hero is subject to an unusual or magical attack, he or she gets a saving throw to avoid or reduce the effect. Like an attack roll, a saving throw is a 1d20 roll plus a bonus based on the hero’s class and level (the hero’s base save bonus) and an ability modifier.
A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.

Sure, blast me with your sarcasm that this isn't 3E D&D, etc, etc. The fact that several 3E D&D books from WotC mentions it, the FAQ mentions it, and the latest book from WotC mentions it, along with the historical precedent, I don't think I'm wrong.

Now, about the problems using natural 1/20 might cause when used for attack/saving throws I don't think you're wrong there (and I might use the ELH open dice rules in the future myself), but it's you that's not core, not us.

IceBear

 

[Kae'Yoss]

We use the 1 = -10 and 20 = 30 rule in our epic campaign, and also have changed the save or die spells only yesterday, in a slightly altered version of the suggestions of Epic Insights. I think it's a necessary step, as epic games venture into areas where old truths become ridiculous lies. (Well, eventually. But even after a couple of levels the old things we were certain of aren't so certain any more, as things we started to notice prior to level 20 increase in intensity).

It's not meant sarcastic, but d20M really isn't exactly D&D: they changed a lot of things (often sublte, but good, changes). But in that case, it further supports our argument that 1/20 is for saves, too.