What is the best save?

[Kae'Yoss]

Re: Saves

Where in the Core rulebooks does it say anything about saves automatically succeeding or failing on 20's or 1's?

Nowhere. As I said, and I'll be happy to repeat it, it shows up in several other books as well, books that are from wizards, by the way, no quint book or something. And as a saving throw and an attack roll are quite similar in their nature and impact on thosee involved, it's a logical thing.

Sorry if the Sage snookered you into believing him, but that's another one if his kooky house rules.

You don't have to be sorry, and the sage neither snookered nor pooled me into something. It's both the sage and several books stating the fact, as well as it's been done like that before, that convinced me that it's the way it should be (and watch out for the revised books, I'm sure they'll clear that one up there).

I guess a level 80 Wizard failing his Will save against a level 1 Cleric's Command spell one time in 20 seems silly to me, but YMMV.

That has nothing to do with saves and 1's and 20's, but with the 1's and 20's themselves: it's the same as that little kid who could hit the fighter40/rogue40 with very expensive equipment and real high ability scores and fighting defensively with his defense weapon (having an ac of, say, 60), with the same chance of success as that 10th-level fighter with weapon focus and a +2 weapon.
The 1's and 20's are fine, both for attack as well for saves - to a point. At epic levels, it might be feasable to change those rules. Both the 1=-10/20=30 rule from DMG and the 1 = new roll -20/20 = new roll +20 from ELH are nice ones.

 

[Ratama]

Practically impossible.

Impossible? Well...

Imagine a horde of orcs attacking a modern tank chassis; practically the same thing. You can't really get a feel for what +5 Dwarven-crafted Full Plate would be like; you have to imagine something like this, only magical.

Not impossible, but certainly not a 1 in 20, even given 'battlefield conditions'.

Many folks use 'natural 1 = -10, natural 20 = 30' because, Hong's yammering aside, the automatic hits and misses can cause 'undue problems'.

Anyway, YMMV. I strongly suggest at least trying a game or two without using automatic results.

 

[Ratama]

Re: Re: Saves

Nowhere. As I said, and I'll be happy to repeat it, it shows up in several other books as well, books that are from wizards, by the way, no quint book or something. And as a saving throw and an attack roll are quite similar in their nature and impact on thosee involved, it's a logical thing.

What other books are you referring to? If they use that, they are mistaken; honestly, when in doubt, use Source material over variants.

A "natural 20" on the die roll is not an automatic success.

A "natural 1" on the die roll is not an automatic failure.

I actually hate to repeat myself, but it bears repeating that automatic failures and successes are NOT part of the basic D20 mechanic; hit rolls are the exception, not the rule.

I also am curious if that will be changed in the revised rules.

You don't have to be sorry, and the sage neither snookered nor pooled me into something. It's both the sage and several books stating the fact, as well as it's been done like that before, that convinced me that it's the way it should be (and watch out for the revised books, I'm sure they'll clear that one up there).

/shrug

I just got through running an adventure from Dungeon magazine that would have been a bit different if that really was a core rule (and thank goodness it isn't ).

That has nothing to do with saves and 1's and 20's, but with the 1's and 20's themselves: it's the same as that little kid who could hit the fighter40/rogue40 with very expensive equipment and real high ability scores and fighting defensively with his defense weapon (having an ac of, say, 60), with the same chance of success as that 10th-level fighter with weapon focus and a +2 weapon.

Exactly, and that makes no sense. Exaggerating the affects of 1's and 20's (as you noted), works better, imho. That way you don't have decrepit level 1 90 year-old Commoners slinging rocks at a AC 40 Wizard with the same hit chance as a level 6 Fighter-Archer armed with a +4 bow firing +2 arrows.

The 1's and 20's are fine, both for attack as well for saves - to a point. At epic levels, it might be feasable to change those rules. Both the 1=-10/20=30 rule from DMG and the 1 = new roll -20/20 = new roll +20 from ELH are nice ones.

So at least you can see that this causes a problem (at least eventually, you admit). So why not fix it for ALL levels of gameplay?

Reflex saves being automatically missed on 1's isn't that bad, but Fort and Will saves not only make less sense to fail automatically, but generally also have MUCH worse consequences.

 

[Iku Rex]

Re: Saves

What other books are you referring to? If they use that, they are mistaken; honestly, when in doubt, use Source material over variants.

As you have already pointed out, the automatic success and failure rules for saving throws have been errataed/clarified in the FAQ. It's "core".

If you won't accept an official document published by WotC as, eh, official, that's your problem.

Edit: Oh, and back on topic, Fortitude is the most important save.

 

[Ratama]

lol

So I supposed you accepted the Sage's 'official' house ruling on Divine Might, and his Dragon Disciple wafflings?

How about this approach; both the SRD and the FAQ are 'official' documents posted on the official site.

The SRD actually has actual legal muscle, and is the official rules set for the D20 system and all D20 publishers.

The FAQ does not, and is not.

SRD > FAQ

In fact, legally a D20 publisher couldn't even use the FAQ's house rules unless the SRD was updated with them. You might want to check these little details next time.

If you won't accept the official D20 rules as, eh, official, that's your problem.

Edit: editted for boorishness. Refer to the following post if you are curious as to the exact nature of said antisocial behaviour of mine.

 

[Nail]

Re: lol

I know, it hurts to be wrong. Need a tissue?

You may find this sort of attitude will bring more grief than converts to your cause.

 

[Ratama]

True; my apologies to everyone else.

I don't suppose I would earn back any Maturity points by pointing out that he 'started it'?

Also, I don't have a 'cause'; it's simply the truth, like it or not.

I happen to like it, is all.

However, if you don't follow the core rules, then it changes a few things.

Having really high Fort and Will saves becomes less important if you have a 1 in 20 chance of failing a Save-Or-Die save regardless of your bonus; if rolling a 1 means death vs a DC 22 Disintigrate whether or not you have a +6 or +60 to your Fort saves, you might be better off putting more rescources into offense so you have to make less saves.

 

[maddman75]

Re: Saves

Where in the Core rulebooks does it say anything about saves automatically succeeding or failing on 20's or 1's?

From the SRD:



Sorry if the Sage snookered you into believing him, but that's another one if his kooky house rules.

I guess a level 80 Wizard failing his Will save against a level 1 Cleric's Command spell one time in 20 seems silly to me, but YMMV.

What part of the core did you find level 80 wizards?

You need to drop the attitude, dude. What corner of RPGnet did you crawl out of? You might have found on other boards that this makes you look authoritative. Here is just makes you look like you are trying to compensate for a poor self image.

Here I'm restraining myself left and right to keep from attacking you personally. Sure its frustrating, but sometimes not being an ass can be rewarding in the long run. You should give it a try.

 

[Ratama]

Re: Re: Saves

What part of the core did you find level 80 wizards?

You need to drop the attitude, dude. What corner of RPGnet did you crawl out of? You might have found on other boards that this makes you look authoritative. Here is just makes you look like you are trying to compensate for a poor self image.

Here I'm restraining myself left and right to keep from attacking you personally. Sure its frustrating, but sometimes not being an ass can be rewarding in the long run. You should give it a try.

Actually, isn't calling me an RPG.net refugee tecchnically an insult?

Anyway, I knew about these boards before this site even hosted them; I just never bothered posting much before.

If my tone seems harsh, it's because the Sage has been making crappy houserulings lately that end up in the FAQ, and thus are treated as official D20 dogma by most folks.

I feel bad saying that the Sage is off his proverbial rocker (because by all accounts he's a great human being), but horrible rulings are horrible rulings.

Making Saving Throws fail automatically on natural 1's is a bad, bad move (putting such an illegal house rule in something called the "Official FAQ" just makes it worse, even if it isn't really 'official').

BTW, what attitude of mine, exactly, are you referring to?

Don't restrain yourself, if you really feel the need to attack me. I'm sure I can defend myself; the truth is a powerful weapon.

Oh, you mean THAT attitude.

 

[AuraSeer]

Re: True; my apologies to everyone else.

Originally posted by Ratama, as paraphrased and condensed by AuraSeer
I'm right because the Sage sucks and I hate him.

:::YAWN:::