What is the essence of D&D

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Bedrockgames]

That is a tough one. I think one of the key things that makes D&D, D&D is that you roll up a character, you pick from an easy selection of classes and you go off to adventure then level up as you gain XP. The core ability scores are a big part of that, levels are a big part of that, HP are a big part of that, myriad dice are a big part of that, etc.

I also think there is a strong Medieval-Fantasy aesthetic and a kind of taco bell, mix and match these different core ingredients to make something new. So you have all these essential races, tropes, adventure types, and locations that many GM can use to populate a world and have players explore.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Oofta]

If primacy of magic or specific races or monsters or any of that was what made D&D what it is, then several games would qualify as D&D.

Which perhaps for some people it does. I don't think of WOW as D&D but it relies heavily on magic, has dungeons, dragons, orcs, dwarves and elves. They even have gnomes that aren't of the garden statue variety.

So I look at the commonalities. We roll funny polyhedral pieces of plastic to resolve attempted actions that may fail. Wizards casts spells, clerics (for the most part) beat up people and cast spells but don't beat them up quite as efficiently as fighters. You have options for fighters that don't involve magic. Thieves Rogues are sneaky bastards that would rather not be in a straight up fight. Paladins annoy @lowkey13 because he won't admit they're really his favorite class.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Oofta]

Fixed it!

Paladins need to be beaten like any rented donkey.*



*I kid, of course! I'm not in favor of animal abuse; just killing off all the Paladins.

So what you're saying is that you want a piece of paladin ass and that you're into S&M? That does explain a lot.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Are you acquainted with the translation of preference into pseudo-logic like "dissociated mechanics?" I mean, that's the low-hanging fruit among many possible examples from the edition war.

I am. I most associate it with Emerikol, although maybe others talk about it. It's more than just HP/meat, if I understand it. It's a basic "all metagame mechanics are bad", with an example being limited-use martial powers. E.g., if a Fighter can swing his sword in a circle and hit every target within 5', it requires metagame mechanics to limit how frequently he can do that.

And I agree with you: it's preference dressed up as theory, and it's nonsense.

And, for what it's worth, I think this whole complicated theory you've developed (not just "Primacy of Magic" but also your rationalizations for why "superhuman" is clearly delineated from "supernatural", etc.) is more of the same: preference dressed up as theory, to give it an air of objective truth.

 

[Guest 6801328]

If primacy of magic or specific races or monsters or any of that was what made D&D what it is, then several games would qualify as D&D.

I rarely agree with you, but I've been thinking this same thing. Sure, magic (primary or otherwise) is an essential ingredient of D&D, but if that, by itself, is the "essence" then a lot of games would be D&D. Or even be more D&D than D&D is.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Tony Vargas]

To answer the question for me the essence of Dungeons and Dragons is dungeon crawling, skilled play of the fiction including unfettered use of player knowledge, and asymmetric information or fog of war.

Sounds like a fair summation of old-school.

rationalization for why "superhuman" is clearly delineated from "supernatural"

adjective: supernatural
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

adjective: superhuman; adjective: super-human
having or showing exceptional ability or powers.
"the pilot made one last superhuman effort not to come down right on our heads"

A human being can't jump over a castle wall. But, jumping over a castle wall doesn't defy scientific understanding or the laws of nature - you could calculate exactly the physics-sense work a creature doing based on it's mass, etc...
...it's just beyond what a human being can do.

Denial of that delineation is tortured logic & rationalization.

Not that something can't easily be both: if you're imbued with superhuman strength by the celestial agent of a divine being, for instance. And, yes, things can certainly be supernatural, but not superhuman. Levitating a feather, for instance. A lot of things you could do with the Prestidigitation cantrip, really.

To me 2nd Edition railroads, 3rd Edition adventure paths, 4th Edition scene framing, and 5th Edition heroic fantasy do not feel like Dungeons and Dragons. Except 2nd Edition they are all good games in their own right.

Wow, that is just /packed/. So much sentiment, so few words. I can get excluding 2e & all WotC eds from 'really D&D' OSR purist stuff, the Old Ways are the Best. I can even kinda sorta empathize a little. But 2e, 3e, & 5e were generally accepted as D&D by fans, and 5e is the come-back king. Whatever Essence may exist among all those editions, and 0e/1e/(h/m/rb)B(X)ECMI^RC, would have to be something more (or less) than the old-school playstyle.

I have a vague recollection of it from other threads; is this related to the Hit Points are / aren't meat? Or the Warlord powers? Or something. There's, like, 50 or so ongoing debates that I have trouble keeping track of.

It's like what's under the gnomish paladin's armor: best not to know. Really, that goes for most re-hashed edition-war 'debates.'

Just like you can bring a gnome to a garden party, and then you can leave him there and never return so he dies alone and miserable.

Die? Or turn into a kitschy lawn ornament?

I don't think asserting primacy of magic is particularly useful; I think magic (like, say, "SWORD") is a necessary ingredient of any TTFRPG, and of D&D. It's pretty much hard-baked in.

Presence of magic might be a necessary ingredient for 'fantasy' - or not, sometimes magic can be pretty questionable, even turn out to be tricks or technology, and still feel a lot like fantasy (even if it shades into science-fantasy, like Darkover, where psionics stands in for magic). Of course, D&D shades into science fantasy, anyway. Primacy of Magic is hardly universal in the broader genre - stereotypically, the heroic warrior, barbarian or knight in shining armor defeats the evil sorcerer/wizard/god-being through strength, courage, faith*, etc - and/or true love, depending on sub-genre.










* I probably shouldn't get into the assertion that the D&D treatment of the divine denies faith or trivializes RL religious beliefs - besides, it really does cut across /all/ editions.