What is the essence of D&D

[Sacrosanct]

That reminds me of a session, when we played the german "The Dark Eye" back in the days. The game just received a new rules companion "introducing" critical hit tables. Before that the rule was, that if you rolled a 1 or 2 (lower is better here), no parry roll allowed and your damage bypasses armor protection (= no points deducted from the damage roll due to the armor of the enemy (natural and worn alike)). Now there was this fantastic table, that you rolled on after you had that critical.
So during the session, the party encounters this big Hydra. Things go wrong and one of our fighters only had his dagger left. and since he was more or less out (being dragged to the back of the battle with like 2 or 3 HP left), he decides to throw that dagger - To-Hit roll turns a 1 Critical! Now he rolls another d20 - comes up a 20- again - maximum result on the crit table. And now you are allowed to make a third d20 roll to see what exactly happens.And voila another 20 resulting in the immediate death of the beast and party saved. One of the most memorable and cinematic moments in my player "career".

I had something similar several years ago playing WFRP 1e. I decided to get into an arena with a minotaur with just my fists. Rolled 5 6's in a row (if you roll a 6 for damage, you roll again and add, and keep adding as long as you keep rolling 6s.)

 

[Lanefan]

By this definition the West Marches sandbox campaign wouldn't count as D&D because PCs aren't allowed to return to the "civilized lands".

A PC isn't allowed to retire? Seriously?

There are also many crpgs such as World of Warcraft that have no defined end point.

Sooner or later in any computer program, just by its very nature, you're going to hit a point where the map doesn't go any further (though it might seem to by code-looping and repeating previously-seen terrain). And no computer program can possibly be programmed to handle everything a player might think of. A living breathing DM, however, can.

I've never played WoW in my life but I know someone who does; and on more than one occasion I've watched for a few minutes and then said "What happens if you try [xxxx completely ridiculous but theoretically possible action]?", only to be told "You can't do that - the program can't handle it."

D&D does have limits. Adventures and campaign settings are limited geographically and by the type of action the PCs are expected to engage in. I can't have my PC become a farmer and expect most GMs to be able to make it interesting because it's going beyond the limits of D&D and the limits of GM knowledge.

Slight correction: you can at any time have your PC become a farmer. But, you have no right to any expectation that the GM (or anyone else) will do anything to make that life any more interesting than that of a typical farmer.

DMs have limits, of that there's no question - a setting, for example, might be limited by how much design work that particular DM has put in to some particular element. But that's not the game's fault - the game itself is open-ended enough to allow limitless setting design: should a DM* want to design an entire universe from the atomic level on up, for example, the game system won't stop her.

* - A DM with about a million-year lifespan, of course, as that's how long this would take.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Slight correction: you can at any time have your PC become a farmer. But, you have no right to any expectation that the GM (or anyone else) will do anything to make that life any more interesting than that of a typical farmer.

Sounds like a person who never played Harvest Moon\Story of Seasons\Stardew Valley.

 

[Lanefan]

Sounds like a person who never played Harvest Moon\Story of Seasons\Stardew Valley.

Guilty as charged - never even heard of any of those.

 

[aramis erak]

"KTAATTS"? Never seen that one before. What's that?

Kill Them All And Take Their Stuff.

 

[ParanoydStyle]

The spell list. Or specifically, having magic be a bunch of blocked rule texts that's separate from other forms of resolution. Any sort of skill-based or freeform magic makes the game into "not quite D&D".

Strongly disagree. In a memey sense I'd be all like:

Any sort of skill-based or freeform magic makes the game into "not quite D&D" "BETTER".

"Fixed that for you." But that'd be kinda rude, so, I went with the first approach of "strongly disagree".

You're describing what I find--as a professional game designer, and being broke and penniless, desperately seeking any crap job I can get so I can take my dog to the vet, it's one of my few joys in life that I can honestly refer to myself as a professional game designer, so please don't take it away from me lol--to be the single worst aspect of the game as being the most essential aspect of the game.

My gold standard in many ways is HERO System. First, I'll recognize that it is extremely niche and not for everyone due to its lack of any implied setting outside the setting specific books, and more importantly due to its incredibly high crunch which scares away a lot of people, especially chargen which is so complex it requires special software for most people to complete (I can build a HERO System PC at 200/150 purely on paper from the book, but that's an ability I'm proud of, like a "stupid human trick", it's not something I'd want to ask of the average gamer if I could avoid it).

Anyway, in HERO System, if you can get past and through the initial wall of incredibly high crunch, you can observe that virtually every single power in the game works on the same basic principles using the same basic procedure. Resolving an Energy Blast or hand to hand attack involves essentially the same process as resolving an Ego Attack, a Presence Attack, Telepathy, Mental Illusions, Ability Drain or Mind Control. The game is complex but it is extremely consistent in that once you know how to do a thing in HERO System, you more or less know how to do all the things in HERO System.

Still needing to constantly reference special snowflake spells is probably the single thing about the current edition of D&D that I like the least.

I think it's very possible to design a version of D&D that is still very much D&D but has this kind of consistency of rules. I also think it would be a very difficult and time consuming task, so much so that even I would not want to take it on for free.

What do I think is the essence of D&D?

Grown people shouting very loudly and excitedly at a die that either came up a natural 20 or a natural 1, or failed to come up on the right number. JK

Good quesiton. There are all many, many things I think are the essence of what D&D is fundamentally about, individually and/or in combination. Here goes:

For me, D&D is about exploring exotic locations--often dungeons--searching for fabulous treasure, and fighting monsters--often dragons--that are guarding it. I'm reminded of my favorite Army slogan: "Join the army and travel around the world, meet interesting people, and kill them." Replace people with "creatures" and that more or less summarizes D&D.

Like Morrus said more succinctly in the very first response, to a degree it's about your characters going from very possibly doomed novices to the major movers and shakers in the magical geopolitics of a country, a continent, or even one or more planes at the highest levels. It's about getting comfortable in your character, comfortable enough to roleplay your character's conscience/ethics/morals in a way that is a more nuanced expression of your character's alignment; it's about being a murder hobo, but it's also about how your character feels about being a murder hobo, or what justifies it to them. This has been true since several editions before it was finally codified in 5E.

D&D is about finally finding awesome magical treasure...and equally about bickering over the division of treasure with other party members.

D&D is about leveling up and getting psyched at the new stuff you can do at the new level.

D&D is about the real possiblity of dying anti-climactically to a random encounter, an unavoidable trap, and/or bad dice luck...and about whether or not the other PCs can/will get you raised.

D&D is about avoiding getting TPK'd, which means TPKs need to mean, or at lease seem, possible.

As a DM, the essence of my personal joy in D&D is to design encounters or scenarios that leave the PCs feeling absolutely doomed to failure and death only to barely squeak through and survive to be victorious, because of their character abilities, cunning and unpredictability, not my fudging. When the PCs exchange crisp high fives after surviving something that I knew was survivable but made seem unsurvivable via various tricks, that is the sweet spot.

Most importantly I think, it's about pretending to be Elves and Dwarves, Fighters and Wizards, Dragonborn and Warforged, Warlocks and Rogues, and dealing with their problems for a few hours every week during which you don't have to worry about your own, probably much less fun, certainly less interesting, problems.

 

[GreyLord]

I'd actually disagree with the premise and say that there is no essence of ALL the editions of D&D that pertains strictly to D&D.

There are two DIFFERENT times, that prior to 3e and that after 3e.

Prior to 3e, it was the wargaming influence and specific rules (to hit/THACO, descending AC, Saves, varied leveling, humancentric focus) mixed with general roleplaying that made it an essence SPECIFIC to D&D.

However, after 3e came out all the way to 5e there is no strict adherence to something that makes it D&D that could not necessarily be applied to any other RPG out there. The rules have changed too drastically to really say...this is D&D.

You could say it is leveling...but other games do that these days as well. You could say it is specific monsters, but there are many D&D games where those monsters never show up...so that can't really be used. You could say vancian spellcasting...at which point you ask...what differentiates between D&D and games that have their roots in 3e such as Pathfinder? Is Pathfinder and other games like it now also included as D&D product identity or D&D itself? I'm not sure WotC would want to include those.

At this point I'd say it's just a Name Brand that has ease of use. It has always been popular but that popularity died down for quite a while in a downward trend. It had a resurgence of sorts at the 3e release but then went down again, and even that resurgence was nowhere close to where it was during the height of the fad years.

Only now with a game that has ease of use is it attaining a new popularity. I'd credit that to the name brand of D&D (and people who want to try RPGs will hear of D&D first normally, which is where they will turn to...and with the ease of use of the rules today...they stay), but not necessarily some mysterious essence of the game today that can't be found in any other RPG...or at least an essence that has been around from OD&D to 5e today.

5e has it's OWN essence of what makes it 5e, but I don't think anything that could truly connect it all the way back to the original game that is seen in almost all games of D&D (or essence) exists that could not apply to many other RPGs along the way.

 

[TwoSix]

Anyway, in HERO System, if you can get past and through the initial wall of incredibly high crunch, you can observe that virtually every single power in the game works on the same basic principles using the same basic procedure. Resolving an Energy Blast or hand to hand attack involves essentially the same process as resolving an Ego Attack, a Presence Attack, Telepathy, Mental Illusions, Ability Drain or Mind Control. The game is complex but it is extremely consistent in that once you know how to do a thing in HERO System, you more or less know how to do all the things in HERO System.

Still needing to constantly reference special snowflake spells is probably the single thing about the current edition of D&D that I like the least.

I'm not making a value judgment as to what is better or worse. I'm saying that referencing special snowflake spells that are fundamentally inconsistent is a defining aspect of the overall feel of D&D. Replacing it with something more consistent might make it a superior game, but it becomes a less authentic experience of D&D.

Most importantly I think, it's about pretending to be Elves and Dwarves, Fighters and Wizards, Dragonborn and Warforged, Warlocks and Rogues, and dealing with their problems for a few hours every week during which you don't have to worry about your own, probably much less fun, certainly less interesting, problems.

That's a fine definition of part of the joy of TTRPGs as a whole, but it doesn't really differentiate between D&D and every other TTRPG. I think trying to decipher the essence of D&D requires parsing out what makes it different from other TTRPGs.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Oofta]

I'd actually disagree with the premise and say that there is no essence of ALL the editions of D&D that pertains strictly to D&D.

There are two DIFFERENT times, that prior to 3e and that after 3e.

Prior to 3e, it was the wargaming influence and specific rules (to hit/THACO, descending AC, Saves, varied leveling, humancentric focus) mixed with general roleplaying that made it an essence SPECIFIC to D&D.

However, after 3e came out all the way to 5e there is no strict adherence to something that makes it D&D that could not necessarily be applied to any other RPG out there. The rules have changed too drastically to really say...this is D&D.

You could say it is leveling...but other games do that these days as well. You could say it is specific monsters, but there are many D&D games where those monsters never show up...so that can't really be used. You could say vancian spellcasting...at which point you ask...what differentiates between D&D and games that have their roots in 3e such as Pathfinder? Is Pathfinder and other games like it now also included as D&D product identity or D&D itself? I'm not sure WotC would want to include those.

At this point I'd say it's just a Name Brand that has ease of use. It has always been popular but that popularity died down for quite a while in a downward trend. It had a resurgence of sorts at the 3e release but then went down again, and even that resurgence was nowhere close to where it was during the height of the fad years.

Only now with a game that has ease of use is it attaining a new popularity. I'd credit that to the name brand of D&D (and people who want to try RPGs will hear of D&D first normally, which is where they will turn to...and with the ease of use of the rules today...they stay), but not necessarily some mysterious essence of the game today that can't be found in any other RPG...or at least an essence that has been around from OD&D to 5e today.

5e has it's OWN essence of what makes it 5e, but I don't think anything that could truly connect it all the way back to the original game that is seen in almost all games of D&D (or essence) exists that could not apply to many other RPGs along the way.

Hah! Will I double dog disagree with you!* My stunning wit not convincing? Okay, this really does come down to personal opinion, but the fact that several other games (I consider Pathfinder just a clone so it's really not fair to call it a different game) copy ideas from D&D doesn't make D&D any less D&D.

But ever since I've been playing, some things have remained the same. We still roll a D20 to resolve attacks and our defensive saving throws. We still have HP, AC, the standard ability scores. Yes, the math is a bit different and the number and type of dice we roll has been tweaked but my AD&D fighter/rogue can be recreated with more-or-less same feel in 5E. Wizards still cast fireballs and clerics still heal.

I think 4E (again, a game I really, really did try to enjoy) is the exception that proves the rule. There was just something ... missing. Some special sauce that I and others have alluded to. A fairly simple set of base rules that can express a nearly endless number of worlds and styles. As long as you stay within the broad outlines of it's implementation of fantasy rules, you can have an amazing variety. If you're playing a Cthulhu, Star Wars or Vampire game, you know basically what kind of game you'll be playing. Madness? Jedi? Gothic punk? I'm over-simplifying a bit, but not by much in my experience.

But D&D? It can be anything from heavy political intrigue where you don't know who you can trust to exploring forgotten lands of mystery to murder hobo kick the door down and take their stuff beer and popcorn games. Yet we still know that dwarven strength based fighter is probably going to slap on armor and plunge into battle. That elven wizard is likely to chuckle with glee as they cast their first fireball against hapless goblins.

To me, it's still the same game I learned in high school oh so many decades ago.

*Which is fine, actually because you're entitled to your opinion. Of course, this being the internet, there are two kinds of opinions. Mine and the wrong one.