What is the essence of D&D

[Zardnaar]

This was arguably the first balanced class design in the history of D&D so when we try to narrow down why people didnt like class design the answers are often hard to figure out the pattern Tony is focusing on.

I'm not denyiong any experiences you had with say AD&D but going by what is published its not fantasy Vietnam by any means.

The adversarial DMS found support in Gygax's writing and people had problems denying them as no "I am not being a jerk I am challenging the player.... " look at that horrible Monty Haul DM" lets all laugh at the guy who lets people get away with stuff ... you are supposed to be making sure they EARNED those stripes. Those low hit point low levels ensured the best option for success was basically cowardice and not being heroic at all.
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I've never run OSR games like that shrugs.

I think the main problem you are experiencing is you don't comprehend most players don't actually care about balance at least in the way you do. They do care if the extremes get bad or if it makes the DMs life hell (3E).

4E balance is pointless if no one wants to play it or it creates new problems like to much healing leading to grinding combats and combats that take to long. You solve some problems and create new ones. You could cut 4E healing by 75% and cut the expected encounters down to say 2/day.

The other balanced D&D would be B/X, wasn't great at level 1 and you could smooth that out in a clone. B/X lacked a lot of the problem spells of AD&D though.

 

[Zardnaar]

Magic at high levels made the fighter a side kick in 1e too maybe not as bad as 3e but I saw DMS giving 1e mages an entire levels worth of spells in 1 book as a treasure.

SUre it happened but you also forget a wizard couldn't learn all those spells. High level fighters were also useful to have around due to things like MR/SR or if they went down to Dragonbreath or something. Magic armor even gave you a save bonus for dragon breath.

Most people would not see high level play in any edition (in 5E its 90% apparently, probably higher for OSR).

if you're making a commercial product catering to the 90% is a better idea than the 10%? We can see that with the relative lack of adventures produced for high level play.

The amount of people who actually care about balance is probably very very small.

 

[Garthanos]

like to much healing leading to grinding combats and combats that take to long.

That is an independent factor of being balanced I think the amount of healing was something inherited from or an extension of 3e.

 

[Zardnaar]

That is an independent factor of being balanced I think the amount of healing was something inherited from or an extension of 3e.

Maybe but 3E healing problem was really specifically wands of CLW, I saw groups of Pathfinder players as late as 2014 not using the wands and back in the day the only group I saw that did was ours. Most groups I saw played it more casually. I'm sure other people had different experiences especially in organised play.

The problem isn't actually the wand but buying magic items.

Even then the main problem was letting PCs buy it for cheap, if the wands existed in AD&D or B/X no problem.

 

[Garthanos]

SUre it happened but you also forget a wizard couldn't learn all those spells. High level fighters were also useful to have around due to things like MR/SR or if they went down to Dragonbreath or something.

I want more than a window of 5 levels that 1e might have given Tony says 5e atleast managed that (but somehow the fighter doesnt really have better skill advancement than i would expect in that tiny window)

 

[Garthanos]

Even then the main problem was letting PCs buy it for cheap, if the wands existed in AD&D or B/X no problem.

I saw bags of holding full of them healing potions so it didnt begin in 3e... its actually easier to design encounters around consistent character ability and durability which being healed up

 

[Zardnaar]

I want more than a window of 5 levels that 1e might have given Tony says 5e atleast managed that (but somehow the fighter doesnt really have better skill advancement than i would expect in that tiny window)

1E predates the expectation of getting to level 20 which didn't actually show up until level 2E. Hell UA was required for several classes in 1E.

But yes if that is an issue for you its a perfectly valid criticism of 1E, that and OD&D were not designed for high level play more like 1-10. Square peg round hole.

BECMI did move away form that but the adventures moved away from dungeon crawls as well exploration and politics and it had flatter math as well (level 20 fighter +13 to hit IIRC).

2E made the effort at least, so did 3E and 4E they didn't really do any better.

 

[Tony Vargas]

@TheCosmicKid

I've been far more than patient with your personal attacks and absolute lack of substance

Put up or shut up.

 

[Garthanos]

I also like how the explicit roles instead of implicit ones encouraged team play. Characters with easy Novas like the aforementioned Paladin and 1e mages with sleep spells (at low levels) I found discourage it... "guard me during the night oh trusty sidekick while I get back the spell which trivializes the fight so we do not have to run so much. " with 5 minute day behavior become the adversarial dMs siren song because "you weren't supposed to let that happen" ask the DMG.

 

[Zardnaar]

I also like how the explicit roles instead of implicit ones encouraged team play. Characters with easy Novas like the aforementioned Paladin and 1e mages with sleep spells (at low levels) I found discourage it... "guard me during the night oh trusty sidekick while I get back the spell which trivializes the fight so we do not have to run so much. " with 5 minute day behavior become the adversarial dMs siren song because "you weren't supposed to let that happen" ask the DMG.

Once again your pushing 5MWD. It's not really standard although I don't see the 5E 6 to 8 encounter expectation working that well either.

4E to me seemed like an attempt to stretch level 1 to 10 over 30 levels. It was a bad idea when BECMI tried it was a bad idea when 4E did it.

If 4E ended at level 15 and the tiers were half what they were in 4E you would have a better game.

Level 1 to 20 is a big thing of D&D now though. It's a sacred cow I wouldn't touch.