What is the essence of D&D

[Guest 6801328]

So what was the group that was left out of 5e's big tent again??

People who don’t like 5e.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Did it ever occur to you that you might be wrong?

Frequently.

I have been wrong about a series of rather dramatic things when it comes to D&D editions. I'm quite used to it. Hopefully I'm not wrong about 5e continuing to do well and going 'evergreen.' But it'll be the first time I've been right with such a prediction, this millennium.

You keep confusing cause and effect

I've been careful to call it a correlation.

; all editions have detractors, all editions have people that don't like them for reasons (good and bad).

Yep. And all games get criticized.
I have a very inconvenient compulsion to defend games I like when I feel they've been unduly criticized. I've defended virtually edition of D&D I've played, that way, from 1e (chatting outside the hobby shop), to 2e (even when I'd lost interest in it, I kept defending it on UseNet), to 3e on Gleemax, and 4e here, right through 5e.
I have a rep as a 4venger because 4e was attacked /so much more than any/every edition/ put together and multiplied by the square of the velocity of light. (OK, not that last bit, but there sure was a lot of energy involved.)

It was a phenom.

But the main thing is it would be nice if you wouldn't spam all conversations with more edition warring (?!?!).

I'm more disappointed than surprised that my idea was a lightning rod. But, I'm not going to never speak of 4e again and let it be Damnatio memoriae. No edition deserves that.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Tony Vargas]

I am going to put this another way; every time I see you post about 4e, I feel the dread, Tony. Because I know it's going to be more edition warring. More "Everyone hated 4e, and I hate them for hating it, ad infinitum."

Wow.

Do you know what would be awesome? Hearing the positives.

Y'know, maybe you just blink and miss those, they get shouted down so fast.

Here's some of the more common complaints about 4E
1. It's an "MMO".
This is most likely about recharging powers ... Boil it down it's about the AEDU powers
2. "It's disassociateive,"
Boil it down it's about powers specifically a few like come and get it or martial healing type stuff. Powers and playstyle.
3. "It doesn't feel like D&D"
Bit harder but probably it doesn't play right so it's probably about playstyle.

Playstyle was barely a word in 2007. ::

Thing is, all those feed back into the Primacy of Magic and it's restoration. AEDU was the structure that put caster and non-caster into rough resource parity so they could be balanced. Only martial powers were ever tagged 'dissociative.' And, yes, the underpinning of the whole issue, as a result: it's Not Really D&D.

5E has more 4E DNA in it

It does, indeed, including things that were distressingly 'dissociative' (martial healing) and 'didn't feel like D&D' (XOMG! fighters cast spells!) and made it an 'MMO' (at-will & 'cool-down'/short-rest powers) when they were in 4e, but, now, they're fine. Why? Because the Primacy of Magic has been restored, magic items and spells are wonderous, D&D is allowed to be D&D again.

 

[Zardnaar]

Wow.

Y'know, maybe you just blink and miss those, they get shouted down so fast.

Playstyle was barely a word in 2007. ::

Thing is, all those feed back into the Primacy of Magic and it's restoration. AEDU was the structure that put caster and non-caster into rough resource parity so they could be balanced. Only martial powers were ever tagged 'dissociative.' And, yes, the underpinning of the whole issue, as a result: it's Not Really D&D.

It does, indeed, including things that were distressingly 'dissociative' (martial healing) and 'didn't feel like D&D' (XOMG! fighters cast spells!) and made it an 'MMO' (at-will & 'cool-down'/short-rest powers) when they were in 4e, but, now, they're fine. Why? Because the Primacy of Magic has been restored, magic items and spells are wonderous, D&D is allowed to be D&D again.

D&D has expectations absolutely especially among veterans.
Casuals won't care though they won't know or care about a lot of online terms. 5MWD they won't understand the term.

 

[Xenonnonex]

Will you guys be taking this discussion into a positive direction or not.

 

[Garthanos]

Why? Because the Primacy of Magic has been restored, magic items and spells are wonderous, D&D is allowed to be D&D again.

Or corresponding resources between martial and magical were removed --> The only significant loss <--- and a major tool for establishing balance was burned at the stake and there was much rejoicing, RIP ever figuring out how much utility ought to occur due to skill use the DM should just bloody guess in the everyone is a spell caster except a small minority world. BUT certainly more than in 4e since even some of the basic spells are upgraded - so best of luck translating those Skill powers to 5e.

Magic items could have been made more awesome in 4e btw and it would not have affected actual game balance (just a bit of philosophy about man and tools ) I think

 

[Garthanos]

Will you guys be taking this discussion into a positive direction or not.

oops... ?

 

[Xenonnonex]

oops... ?

I call it white noise but sometimes it is not easy to tune out.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Or corresponding resources between martial and magical were removed --> The only significant loss <--- and a major tool for establishing balance was burned at the stake and there was much rejoicing, rip ever figuring out how much utility ought to occur due to skill use the DM should just bloody guess in the everyone is a spell caster except a small minority world.

That'd be a bad assumption - the Fighter, the most relatable, familiar heroic-fantasy archetype has stayed the most popular class throughout D&D's long history. When it was the 'fighting man,' when it was all about the % STR, when it was the weapon specialist, when it was the Feat-meister, when it was the martial defender, and now.
The Rogue/Thief as one of the Big 4, and easily the common/relatable/runner-up archetype, also pretty common.

And that's important, because without the mundane, actually in the party with the casters, for contrast, magic doesn't feel as magical.

Magic items could have been made more awesome in 4e btw and it would not have affected actual game balance (just a bit of philosophy about man and tools ) I think

Even though martial-magical class balance is at the heart of what ruined the Primacy of Magic in 4e, it needn't be, classes could be imbalanced, just not consistently enough in favor of the magical ones, for instance. Magic items being more significant whether as build resources or rewards wouldn't necessarily have imbalanced anything, as long as they were fairly equitably distributed - except the game when a DM decided to go low-magic, of course.