What is the essence of D&D

[Garthanos]

Are you really surprised? I mean, you've been in those umpteen skills threads. Under 5e rules there is zero chance of a rogue doing this. None. Flat out can't. And, we have @Zardnaar talking about how it isn't D&D to allow it.

Seems to me to fit perfectly with what @lowkey13 was claiming that no one was claiming.

I pull out the hiding in plain site that a rogue might get at level 16 as something a rogue will not be doing any time soon it only requires you basically get hidden somehow and not move and you can be invisible launching your ninja bolts at enemies every round but them unable to pin down where you are even though you have no ongoing cover.

 

[Garthanos]

Never played much pre 3.x or COC?

If you arent limited to a time of year for your casting... you do not have that. Ever played games that actually had constellations and time of year or day of month limits and such affecting them... apparently not.

Daily is silly

If COC is Cthulu then I do not doubt they have something closer to in flavor.

 

[Garthanos]

Runequest was the first time I seen rituals you could only do once a month or on a specific month of the year... its a dramatically different flavor.

 

[Garthanos]

COC?

Call of Cthulu? No

 

[Hussar]

One of the problems in creating a magic system is that it has to blow your mind. It has to feel magical and special. It has to give the element of wow and look what I found. Look what I can do with this.

Bingo!

And right there, ladies and gentlemen, there is the essence of D&D. Magic has to feel "magical and special". Which means it HAS to be better than non-magical, otherwise, it's not magical or special and doesn't give that element of wow and look what I found.

Imagine a D&D wizards needed to spend hours to cast a single spell. Or days, or weeks even. Where no magic item is better than a +1 sword. Nothing. Magical items are never more powerful than a +1 sword.

People would absolutely hate it. It wouldn't even be considered D&D. Heck, apparently allowing a 23rd level character to jump twice as far as normal is a bridge too far to keep it in the D&D family. Sorry, bad pun.

All these examples do nothing but prove the point. We LOVE finding that ring of regeneration. We REMEMBER that Holy Avenger. Table goes nuts when the wizard drops that second fireball on the baddies, turning them all into crispy critters. How did you beat the gathering of giants in the Hall? Well, we dropped two fireballs on them and those 42 hp giants all went poof. On and on and on.

Magic being "magical and special" (if that's a more acceptable phrase than "Primacy of Magic" ) is the essence of D&D. It's the one strand the binds all editions together. Stray from that and people start claiming that it's not really D&D anymore. Doesn't matter whether I or @Tony Vargas or @lowkey13 all think that 4e is part of the D&D family. I know that we do. But, the broader perception, that unless Magic is "magical and special" it's not really D&D is very real and very easy to display.

Where @lowkey13 is making a mistake is that he thinks that I'm attaching a value judgement to this. I'm not. I'm simply looking at the facts.

 

[Garthanos]

I think it’s very person specific and generational to an extent I think. I dont like magic to feel like comic books with at will effects.

If all magic were 1 minute rituals up to hours of rituals it would feel like magic in mythology and legend aside from the odd man out of Celtic Sorcerers... but that wouldn't float either

 

[Zardnaar]

Just because something's in one edition doesn't make it the essence of D&D. THAC0 come to mind you can switch that out doesn't change the playstyle.

 

[Maxperson]

In pre 3.x days it was never the fighter I pitied. It was the thief. Although I never had problems with people not wanting to play any of these classes it was the thief that I saw having trouble keeping up at higher levels. And it’s amazing that I don’t hear near as much crying from their group. Thief was playing on hard mode. I respected them.

I loved thieves. Nobody else had the skills to get places the way they did and I got lots of scouting time where I would be the first one to see the wondrous unknown.............and be eaten.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Er, not one thing I said involved the DM holding any hands. The DMs job is to provide a fun challenge to the players. Period. Full stop. If the party has no healers, it's a bad DM who just throws things they can't handle at them and the PC's die.

That feels like a very 'new' idea, to me. Then I realize it's almost 20 years since 3.0 introduced CR guidelines.

But, yeah, old school, you show up w/o a cleric, you fight the same 12 zombies in the moathouse as if you had three. You die.

Common pact back in the day: first one to die rolls a cleric.

 

[Maxperson]

That high level thief had every ability undermined... that i could tell back in 1e and the level 9 fighter felt like a henchman to the level 10 or 11 mage. Anecdotes notwithstanding (you get how they arent really important?)

You are making an opinion claim about primacy of magic vs non-magical classes. Counter opinions matter. And I'm far from alone in mine.