What is the essence of D&D

[Campbell]

At the end of the day unless you are willing to meaningfully design the noncombat prowess of martial characters while explicitly defining the noncombat prowess of spell casters you cannot have meaningfully balanced classes because the game design is not finished. It will be designed in motion. That is not necessarily like a problem. It's just a thing.

I do find it somewhat strange that one of the constant critiques of Fourth Edition was that the rules focused to much on combat when many fans were desperate for more noncombat stuff for fighters and rogues who are now told they cannot have noncombat stuff. Not like wrong. Just strange.

This division feels pretty unique to Dungeons and Dragons. When I look to the rest of my library including some fairly mainstream games like Vampire: The Requiem and Legend of the Five Rings 5th Edition it is not like a thing at all to treat noncombat as so fundamentally different for just one set of characters. This might be one of those essence of Dungeons and Dragons things that is actually fairly universal.

I will say that in the instance of there not being meaningful rules for noncombat things I prefer to simply rely on fictional positioning instead of semi-fungible skills.

 

[Nagol]

At the end of the day unless you are willing to meaningfully design the noncombat prowess of martial characters while explicitly defining the noncombat prowess of spell casters you cannot have meaningfully balanced classes because the game design is not finished. It will be designed in motion. That is not necessarily like a problem. It's just a thing.

I do find it somewhat strange that one of the constant critiques of Fourth Edition was that the rules focused to much on combat when many fans were desperate for more noncombat stuff for fighters and rogues who are now told they cannot have noncombat stuff. Not like wrong. Just strange.

Why do you find it strange? It's not like a critique of one game tells you anything about how people feel about another. Likely, it just means the concerns are prioritised.

This division feels pretty unique to Dungeons and Dragons. When I look to the rest of my library including some fairly mainstream games like Vampire: The Requiem and Legend of the Five Rings 5th Edition it is not like a thing at all to treat noncombat as so fundamentally different for just one set of characters. This might be one of those essence of Dungeons and Dragons things that is actually fairly universal.

Some games have specialists who are the only ones who can operate effectively inside a particular space: Cyberpunk's Deckers, for example. Other classed games, like Earthdawn, also have a category of classes who focus pretty strictly on combat and classes that more broadly interact with the world.

Games that gate abilities in other ways than defined classes tend to not have such a distinction.

I will say that in the instance of there not being meaningful rules for noncombat things I prefer to simply rely on fictional positioning instead of semi-fungible skills.

I dislike reliance on fictional positioning in the absence of meaningful rules or at least sufficient examples and precedent where a shared expectation of capability and probability can exist. Explicit rules make the system easier to grok, helps identify the designers biases and expectations, and find edge cases where the model begins to break down.

Relying on fictional positioning alone tends to devolve into either Cops and Robber-style "I hit him, You totally missed!" as expectations and motivations of the participants diverge or into the Rule of Cool where abilities functions just well enough to keep the narrative flowing to meet a particular desire (which can be fun for a session or so, but I dislike for anything longer). It also tends to rely too heavily on the judgement of the GM or equivalent whose job it is to update the fictional positioning to account for actions and results.

I find skill challenges still suffer from this though at least the demarcation of the end state helps prevent the "trophy is always just out of reach" anti-pattern DMs can fall into.

 

[Zardnaar]

The avatar? It’s from the Netflix reboot of She-Ra!

Last time I watched She Ra was the 1980s.

Any good?

 

[MichaelSomething]

I dislike reliance on fictional positioning in the absence of meaningful rules or at least sufficient examples and precedent where a shared expectation of capability and probability can exist. Explicit rules make the system easier to grok, helps identify the designers biases and expectations, and find edge cases where the model begins to break down.

Relying on fictional positioning alone tends to devolve into either Cops and Robber-style "I hit him, You totally missed!" as expectations and motivations of the participants diverge or into the Rule of Cool where abilities functions just well enough to keep the narrative flowing to meet a particular desire (which can be fun for a session or so, but I dislike for anything longer). It also tends to rely too heavily on the judgement of the GM or equivalent whose job it is to update the fictional positioning to account for actions and results.

I find skill challenges still suffer from this though at least the demarcation of the end state helps prevent the "trophy is always just out of reach" anti-pattern DMs can fall into.

Isn't manipulating the fictional positioning\Gamemaster the essence of D&D though?

 

[Nagol]

Isn't manipulating the fictional positioning\Gamemaster the essence of D&D though?

It's the essence of all roleplaying, I suppose. Games added rules so that some form of objective or shared measure replaces reliance on judgement alone to mitigate and alleviate differing expectations and interpretations..

 

[Oofta]

Last time I watched She Ra was the 1980s.

Any good?

Not worth getting Netflix if you don't already have it good but I enjoyed it.

That may be simply a sign I'm immature.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Last time I watched She Ra was the 1980s.

Any good?

One of the better western cartoons out there tbh. If there is even 1 other thing on Netflix you are curious about, it’s good enough to justify getting Netflix for a month or two in order to binge it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Isn't manipulating the fictional positioning\Gamemaster the essence of D&D though?

Fictional Positioning?" IDK
Manipulating or 'gaming' the DM was at least de-emphasized in 3.x/PF & 4e/E relative to 5e & TSR.

 

[Nagol]

Fictional Positioning?" IDK
Manipulating or 'gaming' the DM was at least de-emphasized in 3.x/PF & 4e/E relative to 5e & TSR.

4e had a lot in the little experience I had. Just not in combat. Reading the DM was great for skill challenges though.