What is THE NEXT BIG THING?

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Rykion!

I've never actually got around to playing, but recently re-read the rules. The D&D Boardgame uses special D6's for everything. There are damage dice, an undead turning die, a trap finding die, and a trap disarming die. The characters are the iconic Regdar, Lidda, Jozan, and Mialee. The spell casters have spell points, and everyone has hitpoints. Everyone gets two actions a turn chosen from move, combat, or special (trapfinding, turn undead, etc.). Combat is done by rolling the appropriate damage dice, adding the total rolled then subtracting the target's AC. The only way to miss is to roll less damage than the target's AC. There is no experience system. Instead your character's level is equal to the dungeon level. There are 11 dungeons in the main game ranked from level 1 to 3 and meant to be played in order. There is also a blank grid for the DM to make his/her own adventures. Players keep items they received in each adventure as long as they survive. Dead characters come back in the next adventure with starting equipment based on their level. Each player card shows how many HP and SP a character has at each level.

The main criticisms I have read from reviews suggest that it would benefit from an experience points system (Space Crusade had this so it would be easy to implement), more diversity, more choice and possibly the freedom to create your own characters (a computer program/dvd with the board game could handle this allowing you to print out your own character 'sheets').

It looks pretty good rules wise, but I would have to see how it goes in play. It introduces the very basics of D&D(classes, levels, special abilities, dungeon delving, creatures, 2 action system, HPs), but doesn't go into the D20 mechanic. It mentions the DM making up adventures, but doesn't give any guidelines. The miniatures look alright, but the pre-painted D&DM would have been better. It really seems like a great intro to the D&D world.

I agree with you on the pre-painted minis.

I am not convinced of the need for d20s.

I think something along the lines of the current system maybe with white, gray and black dice for saving throws/effects and yellow, orange and red dice for attacking.

Dice (All 6-sided)
White - - - - * *
Grey - - - * * *
Black - - * * * *
Yellow 0 0 0 0 1 2
Orange 0 0 0 1 2 3
Red 0 0 1 2 3 4

I suppose you could add even more powerful dice for higher level play (purple 0 1 2 3 4 5 for damage etc.)

Attacking with a Vorpal Sword could mean 2 orange dice + 1 white die (with a star roll on the white meaning decapitation...provided you dealt at least 1 point of damage)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya Nightfall matey!

More or less. Check out THIS thread for an amazing/near epic real life event I went through recently.

I hope your brother slapped some bloody sense into you, you silly sausage - you could have darn well killed yourself.

So Krusty mate, any thing else I should look from you in the coming year? Or is it hush hush thing?.

I have so many ideas and plans and seemingly so little time to bring them to fruition, so I don't want to pimp something that could be a long ways off. Although after Ascension the next plan is for Grimoire - the epic magic system and epic magic items portion of the Immortals Handbook series. So I will try and get that done as soon as possible. Then I'll be on the second Epic Bestiary Volume. I think speculating for more than that in 2007 is unlikely.

Confronted by the question of what would you do for THE NEXT BIG THING I did some brainstorming, scribbled some ideas down and then realised (over the course of the last few nights, while engaged in downtime - watching tv and so forth) I had just filled the best part of an A5 sized 80 page notebook without really trying.

I'd sort of like to see D&D go down that route, because I don't really see the point of a 4th Edition thats just going to make rules changes and then reprint a monster manual (and so forth) in the new (slightly different) format.

The only way to go is to vastly simplify things, and in so doing you remove most of the revenue from adding book after book. Therefore to make your money you need to tie everything in with boardgames/minis/cards.

This more visceral approach will also help the jumping ship of gamers to MMORPGs and bring more new gamers to the fold.

In design there is a saying "Don't tell me your idea, show me your idea". Which basically tells us that it is much easier to sell something visceral.

I think you could still keep 3.5/d20 going for those who prefer the pen & paper approach, but I think the boardgame idea is the direction that needs to be taken.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi delericho!

The fundamental problem I see with all these 'Basic Games' is that they are invariably presented to feed into the 'real' game, by buying the PHB/DMG/MM.

The problem there is that if you like the game, you have to throw it away and start again, wasting whatever money you spent. And, if you don't like the game, you've wasted whatever money you spent.

Either way, it's just a waste of money.

(And yet, at the same time, diving into the PHB from the offset is probably too much for a great many prospective players. The best way to learn the game remains to be taught it by an existing DM... but what is one to do when that is not an option?)

If the boardgame was marketed as the next incarnation of D&D and was to be fully supported with new material I think a lot of people would adopt it. I mean people already use boards and minis, we would add cards to do away with pen & paper aspects.

Basically all we are trying to do is boil the game down to the fun elements and get rid of the minutiae of micro-management.

That way, games won't take as long, so instead of having to set aside 3-4 (or more) hours with your friends its only 1-2 hours.

Instead of taking hours to plan adventures, it will take minutes.

Also it will be more fun for the DM because they can play a more adversarial role. They don't have to worry about killing off PCs because they can come back in the very next game.

I only see benefits in the simpler approach. Can anyone see any negatives?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi phil!

The only significant "improvements" I would make would include using the minis from DDM and releasing more expansions. As others have said, the dice mechanic is a little wonky but it's not exactly horrible.

I think there should be some sort of experience system just to give people an incentive, give them more control over their character, and force them to be pro-active rather than just tagging along.

Actually, maybe everyone has a good point. The current mechanics do nothing to guide people into the PHB.

Well we have the basic game for that.

Incidently, I found a great website where people have designed extra stuff for the D&D Board Game - it was interesting having a look around.

http://icexuick.dagdief.nl/dd/index.htm

 

[Bert the Ogre]

D&D, The Board Game

I've been seeing that a lot, and it seems like it might be a good idea. To keep the hobby going, you have to have ways of getting new people interested. Walking into a game store and seeing hundreds of books, all at $25 and up is a little daunting to a 12 year old, AND his parents. Seeing a game at the toy store for $35, and that the game can grow, or not grow, based on the budget of the individual gamer seems like a good concept. It certianly worked for CCGs.

I always liked the Moldvey/Cook and Menzer editions because you got everything you needed in a single box, but you could always upgrade from the "game" version to the "hobby" version whenever you wanted, and you got much more depth with the upgrade. The current iterations of the Basic Set are just too thin, although they do include a few tasty items.

The SRD is a good concept, but it's more than a tad unweildy. I think that is probably by design. Good enough to design a game/adventure/etc with, but far too much of a pain in the nect to actually "play" with.

 

[DragonLancer]

I really don't see the desire to change D&D to include a board. Whats wrong with keeping the game as it is?

 

[Tuzenbach]

I think in some ways we've already seen the 'next big thing' that's saved D&D for another decade, in the form of the D&D Miniatures. My guess is that as long as Wizards continues to make enough money to saisfy Hasbro, the non-interference will continue, and the game will proceed apace. Which is quite nice.

As far as D&D moving forward, I can see one or three things happening:

1) Move towards the mainstream. Create a version of the game (or at least a game) that can be played similarly to a traditional boardgame - vastly simplified rules, a de-emphasis of campaign play, and shortened game times (4 hours max... probably closer to 1 hour for greatest effect). This would mean an end to the supplement treadmill, though, so probably won't become the model for RPGs, but might continue to be a useful gateway.

Note that in some ways DDM covers this ground already, but they might try to merge or expand that game with some light role-playing aspects to try to cross-market.

2) A move towards an always-available electronic community so that you can find a game anywhere at any time, coupled with some really powerful software to run games across the net. This won't ever compete with WoW, and nor should it. It won't even really tap into the WoW player base either. What it will do, though, is allow people who are finding it hard to get a group together to continue playing. As the D&D fanbase ages, and the pressures of life lead to an inevitable attrition, this might become more and more important.

3) A possible shift away from DMs creating their own adventures, NPCs and monsters, and towards using what we're given. This has already started somewhat, but it remains to be seen how far Wizards take it.

---

On reflection, one product I would like to see from Wizards would be a big boxed set of no-prep adventures - adventures that can be run by the DM without having pre-read them. The box should contain about 20 such adventures, plus pre-printed terrain cards for the various dungeon rooms set out in the adventures. There should also be a booklet (set of sheets) with plenty of pre-gen characters suitable for use with the adventures.

The adventures should be short enough to play through in a single evening. Additionally, there is no need for character advancement rules in the box.

The idea here is that it is a product for use on those occasions when part of the group has cancelled, and you still want to game, or you want to introduce new players to the game in the best manner possible - by running them through an adventure.

Hey, you stole my answer!

 

[Shadowslayer]

I really don't see the desire to change D&D to include a board. Whats wrong with keeping the game as it is?

I don't know about changing the game to include a board. But introducing one in an intro to D&D set makes sense. RPGs are kind of like the English language. Easy enough when you already know it, but really loopy and tough to grasp if you don't.

I can tell you this: I have a way better record of introducing newbies to gaming now that there's battlemaps and minis. Its visual, and more game-like. I introduced a number of people back when it was just guys sitting around tables with books and dice. My record wasn't so good then.

I get a lot less blank looks now.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Bert!

I've been seeing that a lot, and it seems like it might be a good idea. To keep the hobby going, you have to have ways of getting new people interested.

Totally agree. Visual (to grab their attention), Simple (to pick up), Quick (to setup and play within an hour or so) and Collectible (to keep them coming back for more). Thats the key to winning new gamers, keeping old ones and expanding the hobby.

Walking into a game store and seeing hundreds of books, all at $25 and up is a little daunting to a 12 year old, AND his parents.

I think D&D is far too daunting for newbies. Also, D&D is not easily demonstratable.

We have a Games Workshop store in the city, whenever I go in there are always staff and/or customers playing the game. If people come into the store the staff are only too happy to give them a demo of any of the games and it only takes 5 minutes or so.

Same thing at my friends comics/game store. Except the people play Magic the Gathering there. Its quick, simple and easy to have a game.

Seeing a game at the toy store for $35, and that the game can grow, or not grow, based on the budget of the individual gamer seems like a good concept. It certianly worked for CCGs.

Also take into account that you really need 3 books even to start playing D&D.

So an 'all-in-one' $39.95 start up basic set would be an attractive prospect.

I always liked the Moldvey/Cook and Menzer editions because you got everything you needed in a single box, but you could always upgrade from the "game" version to the "hobby" version whenever you wanted, and you got much more depth with the upgrade. The current iterations of the Basic Set are just too thin, although they do include a few tasty items.

The basic set is too basic. I think you could take the base format of the Board Game, use pre-painted miniatures and create colour-coded (easily identifiable) boxed sets each of which corresponds to two themes: one indoor, one outdoor. So if you have 4 reversible tiles. One face would be for an outdoor section and one would be for an indoor section.

So it would be as simple as:

#1 (Red): Isle of Dread (Island + Fire-based Dungeon)...featuring Lizardfolk, Dinosaurs and a Dragon (of course)
#2 (Blue): Secrets of Saltmarsh (Island + Pirate Ship)...featuring Ghost Pirates (like that won't sell like hot cakes this summer!)
#3 (Green): The Ghost Tower (Forest + Wizard's Tower)...featuring Orcs
#4 (Black): Tomb of Horrors (Ruins + Tomb)...featuring Undead
#5 (White): The Great Glacier (Ice Mountains + Citadel)...featuring (Ice) Gnolls
#6 (Yellow): Desert of Desolation (Desert + Pyramid)...featuring Scorpionfolks
#7 (Gray): Mines of Bloodstone (Mountains + Mines)...featuring Duergars and maybe a Balrog...I mean Balor.
#8 (Purple): Vault of the Drow (Caverns + Undercity)...featuring Drow, obviously.
#9 (Brown): The Sinister Swamp (Swamp + Village)...featuring Bullywugs
#10 (Pink): Forgotten Temple (Jungle + Temple)...featuring Yuan-Ti

Then each could have an expansion box with 5 new tiles (so that they would combine with the initial 4 tiles for a larger 3 x 3 format should you so wish).

Thats barely even the tip of the iceberg for my brainstorming but I have to keep the best ideas for myself incase some bigwig in the gaming industry gives me an email.

The SRD is a good concept, but it's more than a tad unweildy. I think that is probably by design. Good enough to design a game/adventure/etc with, but far too much of a pain in the nect to actually "play" with.

But imagine if the SRD was as simple as the Board Game rules.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi DragonLancer!

I really don't see the desire to change D&D to include a board. Whats wrong with keeping the game as it is?

I agree with what Shadowslayer was saying. The game as it stands is just too unwieldy for new people to pick-up without joining an existing group.

Additionally, how do you sell the game to new players? If you have a board, minis and cards I think you would attract far more people, especially young kids, families and casual gamers.

Also the current game takes too long for DMs to design/set-up. Thats a common complaint.

Another problem is the time it takes to play. You need 3-4 hours to get anywhere (and then throw in travel time on top of that). That can be difficult for people with jobs and families. But they could probably spare you an hour or 90 minutes.

One aspect of the boardgame format which could be developed (and I am borrowing this idea from Space Crusade), is the role of the DM as an adversarial player in their own right. Instead of DMs fudging rolls to keep PCs alive and the group together the DM would be out to get them. I think this approach would be much more fun for DMs.

So I think there are a lot of positives to adopting the board game approach.