What is THE NEXT BIG THING?

[DragonLancer]

Hi Upper_Krust

I agree with what Shadowslayer was saying. The game as it stands is just too unwieldy for new people to pick-up without joining an existing group.

To an extent, yes, I agree. But thats the same with any RPG going back to the 1970's. It takes time to learn the rules, even the basics, but people have done that easily enough. I think the 3.X rules are a lot easier to read than prior editions - hell, looking back over the 1st ed AD&D rules they make no sense to me now, but we learnt and played them.

Additionally, how do you sell the game to new players? If you have a board, minis and cards I think you would attract far more people, especially young kids, families and casual gamers.

Also the current game takes too long for DMs to design/set-up. Thats a common complaint.

Another problem is the time it takes to play. You need 3-4 hours to get anywhere (and then throw in travel time on top of that). That can be difficult for people with jobs and families. But they could probably spare you an hour or 90 minutes.

I'm going to raise my (probably) unpopular response here, one that I believe wholeheartedly. Time and commitments are IMO BS a lot of the time. We all have commitments, and family, and studies and all that, but we make the time to play. Whether it be our jobs, family or whatever, we need to escape for an evening or afternoon every week or fortnight. Not getting away from it is not healthy. Ok, mini-rant over.

IMO, and from talking to other gamers at my local FLGS, I believe that the biggest issue turning new players away from RPG's and D&D in particular, is the price. You can buy some games for about £15 UK/$30 US and thats all you need bar dice. D&D requires three books minimum, so you are looking at triple that price. Its a lot of money to fork out.

Then theres the reputation issue. Here in the UK, D&D does not have a negative image associated with it. Your everyday bloke in the street has heard of the game. Even mentioning it in job interviews has gone down very well for me in the past.
From what I've read on ENWorld and other forums, its a completely opposite image in the US. Gamers daren't mention to co-workers or prospective employers that they play D&D.
The games industry needs to work out those issues if they/we are to keep the gaming industry going. That could be the next BIG THING, no?

One aspect of the boardgame format which could be developed (and I am borrowing this idea from Space Crusade), is the role of the DM as an adversarial player in their own right. Instead of DMs fudging rolls to keep PCs alive and the group together the DM would be out to get them. I think this approach would be much more fun for DMs.

Personally, this is not what I want to see happen. This isn't a roleplaying game, it's another tactics/wargame in a box. Without meaning to sound elitist, thats not a roleplaying game and its a step in the wrong direction.


After reading through this thread two or three times now, and after discussing a similar issue with the owner of my FLGS lately, the next big thing needs to be opening awareness to potential players beyond the niche gamers. WotC needs to put some of that money they make into TV advertising on a big scale. Expand the game as it currently is to the masses rather than keeping it confined to the slowly shrinking circle of people who already play the game.

 

[mythusmage]

Boards and cards and crap like that? Why this desire to limit and constrain RPGs rather than letting them be what they are best at?

RPGs are about the adventure. They're about taking great rirks, daring it all, and either succeeding gloriously, or failing gloriously. Adventures don't take place on a game board, they take place in a world.

The Next Big Thing®? A set of rules that doesn't codify everthing, and which doesn't get changed everytime somebody doesn't care for some consequence. Rules that encourage people to find in-game solutions to problems, instead of metagaming the crap out of things. Don't like what the Piddling Fool spell does to your character, develop a counter for it instead of changing the spell description.

I say it's about time we stop treating D&D like a competitive game, and started treating it as the cooperative entertainment it could be.

 

[JVisgaitis]

I am not convinced of the need for d20s.

Its D&D for crying out loud! You should definitely be rolling a d20 to attack. You want to roll funky weird dice, save that for damage rolls and finding traps.

 

[Shadowslayer]

This isn't a roleplaying game, it's another tactics/wargame in a box. Without meaning to sound elitist, thats not a roleplaying game and its a step in the wrong direction.

Yeah but who defines the word roleplaying? I've always maintained that if you have a character, and you have free will to attempt whatever you like with that character...move him in any direction, make a choice to unlock a door, kick it in or walk past it, decide to battle a monster or parley with it, then you're roleplaying. I also believe that playing "schoolmaster and naughty little cheerleader" with your wife is also called roleplaying. I also believe that if you're playing Clue, and assume the role of your playing piece...dressing up in yellow and talking like a southern gentleman and wearing a monocle as you make your accusations and suggestions, is also roleplaying. My wife has a job (this is true) where she, as an actress, assumes the role of a patient so that med students can test themselves in pseudo-real situations. That is also, you guessed it, roleplaying. They even call it roleplaying games.

(as I write this, I'm thinking maybe the problem facing RPGs is their frigging name.)

ANyway, my point is, you can have a tactics/wargame in a box and still have it be a roleplaying game.

Boards and cards and crap like that? Why this desire to limit and constrain RPGs rather than letting them be what they are best at?

Boards, cards, heck even minis. I think its been established that "crap like that" is what lots of us like. Maybe we can even call them "boards and cards and crap like that" games. Might even be a more helpful distinction than "roleplaying"

Adventures don't take place on a game board, they take place in a world.

That's maybe why we never had mainstream acceptance. Seriously. How do you explain a statement like that to a newb without sounding like you're on something. No wonder folks look at RPers like were a few bricks shy.

I'll tell you this: If I was gonna market a new game, I'd take my chances with my boards and cards and crap. Maybe that'd be better than a game that has to sustain itself by bloating its rules with supplement after supplement after supplement.

 

[Nightfall]

Hiya Nightfall matey!

Hey there yourself Krusty mate.

I hope your brother slapped some bloody sense into you, you silly sausage - you could have darn well killed yourself.

Yeah well I had the favor of Orcus working in my favor, along with the Scarred Lands looking out for my butt. My brother is younger than I but he did say "Man Nightfall, you are damn lucky to be alive!" I know that but sense isn't always there when you're in a hurry.

I have so many ideas and plans and seemingly so little time to bring them to fruition, so I don't want to pimp something that could be a long ways off. Although after Ascension the next plan is for Grimoire - the epic magic system and epic magic items portion of the Immortals Handbook series. So I will try and get that done as soon as possible. Then I'll be on the second Epic Bestiary Volume. I think speculating for more than that in 2007 is unlikely.

Sounds like some promising purchases to me Krusty mate.

 

[mythusmage]

That's maybe why we never had mainstream acceptance. Seriously. How do you explain a statement like that to a newb without sounding like you're on something. No wonder folks look at RPers like were a few bricks shy.

And maybe RPGs haven't been embraced by the mainstream because we refuse to accept them for what they are.

 

[Shadowslayer]

And maybe RPGs haven't been embraced by the mainstream because we refuse to accept them for what they are.

OK you lost me. (its not hard to do )

What are we refusing to accept?

 

[mythusmage]

OK you lost me. (its not hard to do )

What are we refusing to accept?

How busy is your schedule right now?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Upper_Krust

Hi DragonLancer!

To an extent, yes, I agree. But thats the same with any RPG going back to the 1970's. It takes time to learn the rules, even the basics, but people have done that easily enough. I think the 3.X rules are a lot easier to read than prior editions - hell, looking back over the 1st ed AD&D rules they make no sense to me now, but we learnt and played them.

Yes but back then D&D wasn't competing with so many other hobbies.

I'm going to raise my (probably) unpopular response here, one that I believe wholeheartedly. Time and commitments are IMO BS a lot of the time. We all have commitments, and family, and studies and all that, but we make the time to play. Whether it be our jobs, family or whatever, we need to escape for an evening or afternoon every week or fortnight. Not getting away from it is not healthy. Ok, mini-rant over.

Well I wasn't speaking from personal experience, it was never a problem for me, but it is a problem I have heard from others.

Also you didn't address the problem of the time it can take for DMs to setup adventures.

IMO, and from talking to other gamers at my local FLGS, I believe that the biggest issue turning new players away from RPG's and D&D in particular, is the price. You can buy some games for about £15 UK/$30 US and thats all you need bar dice. D&D requires three books minimum, so you are looking at triple that price. Its a lot of money to fork out.

Lets also point out that even though £17 UK is equal to £30 US, no vendor ever sells at that price, it will always be £20 or more.

Then theres the reputation issue. Here in the UK, D&D does not have a negative image associated with it. Your everyday bloke in the street has heard of the game. Even mentioning it in job interviews has gone down very well for me in the past.
From what I've read on ENWorld and other forums, its a completely opposite image in the US. Gamers daren't mention to co-workers or prospective employers that they play D&D.
The games industry needs to work out those issues if they/we are to keep the gaming industry going. That could be the next BIG THING, no?

But does that make it sell better in the UK...I don't think so.

Personally, this is not what I want to see happen. This isn't a roleplaying game, it's another tactics/wargame in a box. Without meaning to sound elitist, thats not a roleplaying game and its a step in the wrong direction.

Roleplaying isn't in a book, or a box or on a board. Its what you invest of yourself into the game. Having a board, minis and cards doesn't change that.

What those things do is 'help' the gamer, not hinder any roleplaying experience.

After reading through this thread two or three times now, and after discussing a similar issue with the owner of my FLGS lately, the next big thing needs to be opening awareness to potential players beyond the niche gamers. WotC needs to put some of that money they make into TV advertising on a big scale. Expand the game as it currently is to the masses rather than keeping it confined to the slowly shrinking circle of people who already play the game.

But part of the problem is that you can't easily sell D&D (in its current incarnation) on television. Its not visual enough. Heck you can't really give demonstrations in a store either.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi mythusmage!

Boards and cards and crap like that?

Make boards and minis integral (which for so many gamers they already are), add cards as a way of removing the minutiae of paperwork.

Why this desire to limit and constrain RPGs rather than letting them be what they are best at?

On the contrary the idea is to simplify the rules (to make them more approachable) and make the game more visceral (so that it becomes easier to sell).

RPGs are about the adventure. They're about taking great rirks, daring it all, and either succeeding gloriously, or failing gloriously. Adventures don't take place on a game board, they take place in a world.

Theres no reason why that has to change.

Does having a board somehow ruin the roleplaying experience, or does using minis? Obviously the answer is no, because so many gamers already use them as visual aids. These things are designed to help gamers not hinder any roleplaying.

The Next Big Thing®? A set of rules that doesn't codify everthing, and which doesn't get changed everytime somebody doesn't care for some consequence. Rules that encourage people to find in-game solutions to problems, instead of metagaming the crap out of things. Don't like what the Piddling Fool spell does to your character, develop a counter for it instead of changing the spell description.

You might want to have a look at Amber diceless roleplaying.

The problem with your idea is twofold, firstly it does nothing to help bring in new gamers, secondly its the antithesis of the splatbook business model - so how the heck can any company make a profit from it?

If the basis of your rules are flexibility, then selling supplemental material is contradictory. Therefore it cannot be profitable.

I say it's about time we stop treating D&D like a competitive game, and started treating it as the cooperative entertainment it could be.

Surely the base idea is to have fun, regardless of how you play it.