What is the point of GM's notes?

[Maxperson]

Is learning anything the DM makes up the same thing as learning the content of the GM's notes? If there's a difference I can't see it.

That has never been the issue with what you have been saying. The issue is that we do not play to find out what is in the DM's notes. That is not any purpose of our play.

An event in the gameworld that the players don't know about and that is not relevant to the "PC bubble" - which I take to mean the framing of situations and resolution of them during the course of play, as the players declare actions for their PCs - seems the very definition of setting solitaire!

Except not, as I have explained repeatedly. It's not intended for the DM alone.

 

[Lanefan]

So are you saying that there are two very different definitions, or are you saying that the GNS definition is a more specific version of the general use one?

I'd say they're different but with overlap. Big-G Gamist is to me more talking about an overall style of design and-or play (e.g. "4e is more Gamist than other D&D editions") while small-g gamist is talking more about specific non-realistic or game-first elements within any game or setting (e.g. "Hit points are a gamist thing in any system that uses them").

We were calling things like hit points gamist ages before the Forge got hold of the term.

 

[Fenris-77]

That sounds like mostly the same thing to me, with the difference being level of focus. Certainly not an actual different thing.

 

[prabe]

So can someone remind we why we're now talking about GM immersion? Never mind whether that's possible or not in the way that player immersion is, why are we even considering it as idea? As a goal of living world play? I find that idea faintly ridiculous, but maybe I'm missing something....

Yeah. I'd figure the goal of "living world play" to be verisimilitude, not immersion; plausibly verisimilitude as a gateway to immersion, but still--verisimilitude first. I think the GMs who have "living world" as a goal maybe think they have a high internal verisimilitude bar, and if they can clear their own internal bar they can almost certainly clear their players' verisimilitude bars. And to the extent their players want immersion, and need verisimilitude to get it, they're helping their players.

It's possible that those GMs are also getting creative yayas from building the setting. I see no reason GMs shouldn't have their fun.

 

[Fenris-77]

I'm not saying that GMs shouldn't have their fun, of course they should or no one would do the job. I just have my doubts about the idea of GM immersion, which sounds to me even more pie in the sky that player immersion as any kind of identifiable specific thing.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm not saying that GMs shouldn't have their fun, of course they should or no one would do the job. I just have my doubts about the idea of GM immersion, which sounds to me even more pie in the sky that player immersion as any kind of identifiable specific thing.

Why shouldn't the DM be able to step into an NPC or monster and immerse himself in that role?

 

[Fenris-77]

Why shouldn't the DM be able to step into an NPC or monster and immerse himself in that role?

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the goal of immersion, as it's mostly put forward as a player facing goal, is impossible for GMs. You don't have a character to immerse into.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the goal of immersion, as it's mostly put forward as a player facing goal, is impossible for GMs. You don't have a character to immerse into.

I do have characters to immerse into. They're called NPCs. I don't inhabit them for as long of a period as the player as I have to step out a lot to run the rest of the game, but immersion in them does happen for me. Usually for the NPCs that are special in some way, rather than Joe the Baker.

 

[Fenris-77]

That's not immersion that way it's talked about on the player side at all. I'm not suggesting that it isn't similar, it probably is, but the idea of immersion as a player facing thing, by which I mean the usual shizz, isn't going to happen for a GM. Not just because they change characters all the time, although that does mitigate against it, but also because they deal with all the non-character meta level stuff that makes immersion harder, at least by common accounts.

 

[Maxperson]

That's not immersion that way it's talked about on the player side at all. I'm not suggesting that it isn't similar, it probably is, but the idea of immersion as a player facing thing, by which I mean the usual shizz, isn't going to happen for a GM. Not just because they change characters all the time, although that does mitigate against it, but also because they deal with all the non-character meta level stuff that makes immersion harder, at least by common accounts.

And I'm telling you that it is the same. Yes it's harder, because of the other stuff I deal with. But it does happen with some of the NPCs. It's exactly the same as when I immerse as a player, except for the duration.