What is the point of GM's notes?

[AnotherGuy]

Yeah. I'd figure the goal of "living world play" to be verisimilitude, not immersion; plausibly verisimilitude as a gateway to immersion, but still--verisimilitude first. I think the GMs who have "living world" as a goal maybe think they have a high internal verisimilitude bar, and if they can clear their own internal bar they can almost certainly clear their players' verisimilitude bars. And to the extent their players want immersion, and need verisimilitude to get it, they're helping their players.

Great post!

Bouncing off your thoughts - People who engage in Story Now games don't have to clear any of their players' verisimilitude bar since the fiction is developed at the table and everyone is held responsible for clearing the table's verisimilitude.

In non-Story Now games that sole responsibility falls on the GM, therefore the necessity of GM notes and prep to ensure no plot holes or lack verisimilitude. This seems to explain some of the desire for the living, breathing world goal.
I imagine there is nothing worse than a player in a heavy GM prep game pointing out an obvious flaw in the GM's established fiction.

Funny enough many D&D APs suffer from the above and require fixing as is evident from the numerous enhancing abc AP threads here.

 

[Emerikol]

So are you saying that there are two very different definitions, or are you saying that the GNS definition is a more specific version of the general use one?

Just like narrativist and simulationist are used outside of the Forge so is gamist. Surely you don't doubt simulationist exists outside of the Forge? In a post above, there are several ways presented on how it has been used.

 

[Emerikol]

I do have characters to immerse into. They're called NPCs. I don't inhabit them for as long of a period as the player as I have to step out a lot to run the rest of the game, but immersion in them does happen for me. Usually for the NPCs that are special in some way, rather than Joe the Baker.

Much as it pains me to agree with Fenris I don't see the GM being immersed in characters all that much. Obviously, a method actor might argue they try to put themselves in the NPCs shoes and act accordingly no arguing that. I just think the switching happens so often that it's hard to really be immersed in the way I am thinking.

 

[Maxperson]

Much as it pains me to agree with Fenris I don't see the GM being immersed in characters all that much. Obviously, a method actor might argue they try to put themselves in the NPCs shoes and act accordingly no arguing that. I just think the switching happens so often that it's hard to really be immersed in the way I am thinking.

Which is fine. I'm not arguing that it happens all the time. Or that it's easy. I'm saying that it's a fact that I do it, so it doesn't matter what you and @Fenris-77 experience. That you guys can't do it has no bearing on whether I do it or not. You two(and as many others as you feel like getting) can agree from here to next Tuesday and it still won't alter that fact.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm watching Questing Beast host a discussion on YouTube with Sandy Petersen, John Wick, and Lindybeige about running sandbox games. At the section bookmarked in the video called "Providing Solutions," the guests talk about the issue of how players solve problems presented to them in sandbox games. In particular, Questing Beast talks about the annoyance he experienced in some games that "the goal is to guess what the game master is thinking. That they have come up with a solution and the goal is to figure out whatever it is they are imagining... and a lot of players have that mentality too..." and then they talk immediately after that about making stuff up on the spot as the GM (e.g., the guard the PCs knocked out having a key in their pocket).

Edit: This also just gets better because they are talking about players establishing facts in the world.

Whoever they are talking about is pretty bad at running a sandbox. In my game I don't bother to come up with solutions to the problems I put out there. I used to, but eventually I realized that 1) I can't think of everything, and 2) the players usually come up with things that I didn't think of. Some solutions just jump out at me, so often there's one or two that I know about, but not because I sat and thought about it. Last campaign a ghost was terrorizing a town and the players needed to come up with solutions to putting her to eternal rest. I think I had one solution that jumped out at me. While the players were brainstorming ideas, they came up with three more that could work(and some that wouldn't or weren't likely), including one that was so good that had they tried it, would have worked with no roll. A well run sandbox shouldn't have players that are trying to guess what the DM is thinking. It should have players that are figuring out solutions to problems on their own and presenting those solutions to the DM who then adjudicates.

 

[prabe]

Great post!

Glad you liked it. I don't think I've ever used the word verisimilitude so many times in so few sentences.

Bouncing off your thoughts - People who engage in Story Now games don't have to clear any of their players' verisimilitude bar since the fiction is developed at the table and everyone is held responsible for clearing the table's verisimilitude.

I don't have a lot of experience with Story Now--and none running it--but this feels about right. Since everyone contributes to the setting, you have the chance--and duty, I suspect--to speak up if something in the setting seems as though it's going to be hard for you to swallow.

In non-Story Now games that sole responsibility falls on the GM, therefore the necessity of GM notes and prep to ensure no plot holes or lack verisimilitude. This seems to explain some of the desire for the living, breathing world goal.
I imagine there is nothing worse than a player in a heavy GM prep game pointing out an obvious flaw in the GM's established fiction.

Funny enough many D&D APs suffer from the above and require fixing as is evident from the numerous enhancing abc AP threads here.

Yeah. What you describe has been my experience with every AP I've ever played in, and with most of the shorter published adventures, too. There's probably a connection between that and my inability to run published adventures ...

 

[prabe]

In my game I don't bother to come up with solutions to the problems I put out there. I used to, but eventually I realized that 1) I can't think of everything, and 2) the players usually come up with things that I didn't think of. Some solutions just jump out at me, so often there's one or two that I know about, but not because I sat and thought about it.

I usually like to make sure I have at least one solution in mind, in case the players get stuck (because I figure the characters might grasp things the players don't) but otherwise I'm with you on not having a singular solution that will work.

About the immersion thing: As GM, I get immersed in the story and/or the game--I think it was @Fenris-77 who specifically mentioned that possibility--but immersion in a character isn't something I think I've managed as a player or GM in anything, pretty much ever. That doesn't mean I'm going to argue that someone who says they're experiencing immersion in a character or the setting isn't, though.

 

[Maxperson]

I usually like to make sure I have at least one solution in mind, in case the players get stuck (because I figure the characters might grasp things the players don't) but otherwise I'm with you on not having a singular solution that will work.

About the immersion thing: As GM, I get immersed in the story and/or the game--I think it was @Fenris-77 who specifically mentioned that possibility--but immersion in a character isn't something I think I've managed as a player or GM in anything, pretty much ever. That doesn't mean I'm going to argue that someone who says they're experiencing immersion in a character or the setting isn't, though.

I can be immersed in the NPCs, but as I mentioned, they're generally the special NPCs that I know more about. I inhabit them just like I do a PC and interact with the players via that immersion. It's also generally just at the times when we are doing the social roleplaying, not during combats or when I'm trying to figure out how they are going to react to things being done in the world by the PCs and others.

 

[AnotherGuy]

About the immersion thing: As GM, I get immersed in the story and/or the game--I think it was @Fenris-77 who specifically mentioned that possibility--but immersion in a character isn't something I think I've managed as a player or GM in anything, pretty much ever. That doesn't mean I'm going to argue that someone who says they're experiencing immersion in a character or the setting isn't, though.

What do we imagine immersion in a character would mean? I'm merely asking because your post has drawn a distinction between immersion in the story, immersion in a character and immersion in a setting. It is not something I have ever thought before.

 

[prabe]

What do we imagine immersion in a character would mean? I'm merely asking because your posts has drawn a distinction between immersion in the story, immersion in a character and immersion in a setting. It is not something I have ever thought before.

Immersion in the story, while gaming, I think of as the same as being immersed in any story in any media. The parallel while reading is the experience of falling into a novel (and missing my subway stop because I didn't hear the announcement). As a GM, this is most likely to happen for me during an extended role-playing scene.

Immersion in the game itself is immersion in the processes of playing it. This is probably more like my experience of losing track of time and everything else while playing in my MIDI space, making "music." The process just consumes all available bandwidth. As a GM, this is most likely to happen for me during a particularly involved combat, or something else making extended extensive use of mechanics and rules.

Immersion in a character seems to me as though it would be experiencing what the character is experiencing, from that character's POV. Even actors have other thoughts in mind while acting--they have to, for practical onstage reasons--so this can't be like acting, exactly. I don't know that I have an analogue in my experience, and I don't know that I've experienced this myself.

Immersion in a setting could mean one of two things. It could be immersion in the setting as though it were a character, or it could be perceiving the setting as though you were there, but not particularly in a character's POV. As with immersion in a character, I don't have a good analogue for this; I'm pretty sure I've never experienced this.

I am willing to be corrected; I hope this helps.