What is the point of GM's notes?

[prabe]

It seems reasonable to me, though, that the player could, knowing now that a cleric is present, have a flashback and during the planning phase, plan to use his ring of protection to help with spells such as Hold Person. That seems very plausible for what the character could have accomplished. What am I missing?

So, I pretty violently disliked the game when I read the SRD, for reasons that had nothing to do with the Flashback mechanic, and I haven't looked at the rules in probably at least a year: My recollections of rules are ... at best, spotty. I sincerely hope any errors below are corrected by folks with more/better knowledge of the relevant mechanics.

That said, Flashbacks have a cost that is roughly equivalent to damage (Stress reflects many things, IIRC). So, you're literally hurting yourself to do it. Also, while the game doesn't focus specifically on what an individual character is carrying, there is a focus on loot, and it seems plausible you can't just decide you have a selection of rings to choose from. Also, what you're doing in a flashback is either altering how bad a bad outcome can be or how likely a good outcome can be, and in either case the outcome is derived from your action. As with PbtA games, the GM never rolls for outcome or damage (I think there's the option for the GM to roll instead of deciding).

Seriously, it's not the violent retcon some people in the thread seem to think it is.

 

[Manbearcat]

I think the big problem with people misunderstanding of Flashbacks is that they don’t understand the holistic context (in terms of engagement with the rules right now and the potential downstream effects of that engagement).

For instance, here is a typical “Flashback gone askew” scenario:

1) 1 Stress paid to enable it. This is the most precious resource in the game. At a base of 9 (that you have to manage in the short game of the Score and the long game of play broadly...which includes deploying tactically and restoring strategically), you’re playing with fire. If you Stress out in a Score (a) your character is out of the Score and (b) you gain a Trauma (4 and your character is done).

2) Your Action Roll for the Flashback has triggered a complication along with your intended effect.

3) Your Flashback is basically a setup move , changing the gamestate to open up a possible move now in the fiction.

You make your move. It goes south.

So what has your Flashback earned you?

1 Stress lost (and that’s only if you didn’t amplify any of your Flashback related Action Rolls by Pushing...it’s conceivable that you could spend 4 Stress, almost HALF of your boxes, to enable a Flashback)

+ 2 x Complications!

Not great!

Flashbacks don’t happen nearly as often as people think for a number of reasons. They aren’t a gimme and they can complicate your life in a number of ways (that can cause a Score to spiral...and cause subsequent play to be perturbed as you try to recover).

They’re used surgically with care and finesse or desperately (in emergency...break glass). My guess is you see a Flashback on average 1.5 * per Score in a 3 player game and 1 * per in a 2 player game.

 

[hawkeyefan]

That's not how D&D works by default, though. You hope to get something useful, but the roll does not determine that. It just determines what lore you recall.

What information would a PC be looking for that would not be useful? And if there are no stakes...nothing gained on success implies nothing lost on a failure...then why are dice even being used?

Do you have an actual play example of this? Not some hypothetical designed to fit this specific situation, but an example that came up in play?

It seems to me that this would be so unlikely to not be a concern at all, but if you have an example that helps explain I’m interested in hearing it.

Tell you what. If you can show me where in here it says that you get hints on what to do, I will concede the point. All I see is lore.

"Religion. Your Intelligence (Religion) check measures your ability to recall lore about deities, rites and prayers, religious hierarchies, holy symbols, and the practices of secret cults."

You don’t see how most of that information would prove useful to PCs?

It seems reasonable to me, though, that the player could, knowing now that a cleric is present, have a flashback and during the planning phase, plan to use his ring of protection to help with spells such as Hold Person. That seems very plausible for what the character could have accomplished. What am I missing?

As others have explained, Flashbacks are potentially costly. They also aren’t carte blanche to just decide whatever you like. To have a specific item, it needs to be available in your inventory, or else it needs to be acquired as an asset, which is a Downtime Action.

So if you wanted to perform a Flashback to say that you somehow obtained a protective item to help you, you’d have to Flashback and then Acquire an Asset, which would cost 1 Coin in addition, and then you’d have to explain how you did it, and make the appropriate roll.

The mechanic is very connected to other game elements, specifically Stress use and Downtime Actions, so fully understanding the impact is tricky without grasping the way all these cogs fit together.

It’s a meaningful decision, which is why I enjoy them. In the game I’m currently in, I think that our 2 player crew has used maybe 2 Flashbacks over the course of about 7 scores. Maybe 3?

Where as with D&D, past events are being established routinely all the time. It’s just not in such an overt way from the player side, not without being “approved” by magic or some appropriate skill or ability.

 

[Maxperson]

So, I pretty violently disliked the game when I read the SRD, for reasons that had nothing to do with the Flashback mechanic, and I haven't looked at the rules in probably at least a year: My recollections of rules are ... at best, spotty. I sincerely hope any errors below are corrected by folks with more/better knowledge of the relevant mechanics.

That said, Flashbacks have a cost that is roughly equivalent to damage (Stress reflects many things, IIRC). So, you're literally hurting yourself to do it. Also, while the game doesn't focus specifically on what an individual character is carrying, there is a focus on loot, and it seems plausible you can't just decide you have a selection of rings to choose from. Also, what you're doing in a flashback is either altering how bad a bad outcome can be or how likely a good outcome can be, and in either case the outcome is derived from your action. As with PbtA games, the GM never rolls for outcome or damage (I think there's the option for the GM to roll instead of deciding).

Seriously, it's not the violent retcon some people in the thread seem to think it is.

Yeah. I saw that stress can range from 0 to 2 or more(wondering if there's a cap). I don't really know what stress does or what a ring like that would entail.

 

[prabe]

Yeah. I saw that stress can range from 0 to 2 or more(wondering if there's a cap). I don't really know what stress does or what a ring like that would entail.

Stress are like hit points in a non-leveled game (like Call of Cthulhu, where you can't have more than ... twelve, I think). So taking 1 Stress (or 2) is ... not likely to be a best-case scenario. And if Flashbacks automatically bring complications with them (I have no reason to doubt @Manbearcat on this) then it seems as though it would almost have to be an act of desperation, or one that would guarantee success on the score, or both.

I remember thinking when I read the SRD that Flashbacks seemed ... overhyped, and likely to be a really bad idea in play, just based on costs and likely outcomes (not like a bad idea for retconny reasons).

 

[Maxperson]

What information would a PC be looking for that would not be useful? And if there are no stakes...nothing gained on success implies nothing lost on a failure...then why are dice even being used?

So you're a PC and something unknown to you as a player is attacking and you want to know what it is and what it can do. It might be a matter of life and death, or it might be nothing, or it might not be useful now, but be useful later. You don't just get to have the knowledge for free just because it's not helpful right now. That's why the dice are being used. Unless of course there's no chance of them knowing, in which case it's a no per RAW, or if they would know automatically for some reason, in which case it's a yes per RAW.

Do you have an actual play example of this? Not some hypothetical designed to fit this specific situation, but an example that came up in play?

The above happens all the time.

It seems to me that this would be so unlikely to not be a concern at all, but if you have an example that helps explain I’m interested in hearing it.

It's usually creature lore, one of the most common types, where the information isn't always useful. It's more often useful in a situation where you have a more narrowly defined mystery, like @Fenris-77's mystical runes example upthread, a success will generally be of some amount of use.

You don’t see how most of that information would prove useful to PCs?

Could, not would.

As others have explained, Flashbacks are potentially costly. They also aren’t carte blanche to just decide whatever you like. To have a specific item, it needs to be available in your inventory, or else it needs to be acquired as an asset, which is a Downtime Action.

So if you wanted to perform a Flashback to say that you somehow obtained a protective item to help you, you’d have to Flashback and then Acquire an Asset, which would cost 1 Coin in addition, and then you’d have to explain how you did it, and make the appropriate roll.

The mechanic is very connected to other game elements, specifically Stress use and Downtime Actions, so fully understanding the impact is tricky without grasping the way all these cogs fit together.

It’s a meaningful decision, which is why I enjoy them. In the game I’m currently in, I think that our 2 player crew has used maybe 2 Flashbacks over the course of about 7 scores. Maybe 3?

Where as with D&D, past events are being established routinely all the time. It’s just not in such an overt way from the player side, not without being “approved” by magic or some appropriate skill or ability.

Thanks for the more detailed explanation. I knew that there were costs potentially involved, with greater costs the greater the impact. The costs don't change what I dislike about the mechanic as it is stated in Blades, though.

 

[Manbearcat]

Yeah. I saw that stress can range from 0 to 2 or more(wondering if there's a cap). I don't really know what stress does or what a ring like that would entail.

This weekend I’m beginning playtesting (and inevitably iterating) my Dungeon World meets Blades in the Dark meets Torchbearer Hack.

What you’re depicting above (I think loading out a a Ring of Protection to ward against an effect on an Adventure) wouldn’t be a thing because you can’t just flashback a new, persistent item into your loadout.

If you’re getting a persistent warding item like a Ring of Protection it’s acquired either (a) through an Adventure (and therefore a persistent 0 load item that you always have loaded out) or (b) through a multistage Longterm Project during downtime (project 1 = acquire materials > 2 = forge and enchant ring).

However, if you’re trying to get an impromptu consumable (say a Brooch of Protection that disintegrates upon invoking its magic), the constraints/procedure would be:

1) You have the Load space (this would be a 1 Load item so you’d have to (a) have the space in your Load requirements and (b) spend your 1 Floating Load on it...in the stead of an alternative item).

2) Spend 1 Stress (this is complex, not elaborate) and 1 Coin to Acquire an Asset. Do the AaA procedures:

Roll Tier (so if you’re Tier 2, roll 2d6).

Result = 1-3: Tier -1, 4/5: Tier, 6: Tier +1, critical: Tier +2.

You can spend coin to raise the result of this roll by spending 2 coin per additional Tier level added.

3) Now we’re at the moment where the Brooch of Warding activates against the Spell/Supernatural Effect.

Let’s say it’s a Tier 4 Adult Red Dragon’s Fire Breath.

The Company is Tier 3. They rolled a 5 with their 3d6 so it’s a Tier 3 Brooch. That isn’t going to be effective against a Tier 4 Dragon so they invest another 2 Coin to make it Tier 4. This will net them a Special Armor box against the Tier 4 magic. They tick it to Resist the Fire Breath Complication.

So instead of taking Harm 3, they’ll take Harm 1 (orthodox Blades would only throttle this back 1, but my game will be high fantasy so more robust heroes and resistance). In order to do that, they’ve spent:

* 1 Loadout Box

* their only Floating Loadout Box (which means tough luck if they need something else later in a pinch)

* 1 Stress

* 3 Coin

And this is all assuming that they had the Loadout to spend.

 

[Manbearcat]

Stress are like hit points in a non-leveled game (like Call of Cthulhu, where you can't have more than ... twelve, I think). So taking 1 Stress (or 2) is ... not likely to be a best-case scenario. And if Flashbacks automatically bring complications with them (I have no reason to doubt @Manbearcat on this) then it seems as though it would almost have to be an act of desperation, or one that would guarantee success on the score, or both.

I remember thinking when I read the SRD that Flashbacks seemed ... overhyped, and likely to be a really bad idea in play, just based on costs and likely outcomes (not like a bad idea for retconny reasons).

Slightly off.

There isn’t an assured complication. I was composing the “Flashback gone askew” scenario.

There is the risk of a Complication in both acquiring the Flashback (the Action Roll for the setup) and the move in the now that the Flashback set up.

Simple flashbacks without much complexity could cost 0 and require no Action Roll for the setup. But those are seriously mundane and don’t give you much in the way of material advantage at all (they basically very marginally open up the potential “move-space” for the player).

 

[Maxperson]

This weekend I’m beginning playtesting (and inevitably iterating) my Dungeon World meets Blades in the Dark meets Torchbearer Hack.

What you’re depicting above (I think loading out a a Ring of Protection to ward against an effect on an Adventure) wouldn’t be a thing because you can’t just flashback a persistent item into your loadout.

If you’re getting a persistent warding item like a Ring of Protection it’s acquired either (a) through an Adventure (and therefore a persistent 0 load item that you always have loaded out) or (b) through a multistage Longterm Project during downtime (project 1 = acquire materials > 2 = forge and enchant ring).

However, if you’re trying to get an impromptu consumable (say a Brooch of Protection that disintegrates upon invoking its magic), the constraints/procedure would be:

1) You have the Load space (this would be a 1 Load item so you’d have to (a) have the space in your Load requirements and (b) spend your 1 Floating Load on it...in the stead of an alternative).

2) Spend 1 Stress (this complex, not elaborate) and 1 Coin to Acquire an Asset. Do the AaA procedures:

Roll Tier (so if you’re Tier 2, roll 2d6).

Result = 1-3: Tier -1, 4/5: Tier, 6: Tier +1, critical: Tier +2.

You can spend coin to raise the result of this roll by spending 2 coin per additional Tier level added.

3) Now we’re at the moment where the Brooch of Warding activates against the Spell/Supernatural Effect.

Let’s say it’s a Tier 4 Adult Red Dragon’s Fire Breath.

The Company is Tier 3. They rolled a 5 with their 3d6 so it’s a Tier 3 Brooch. That isn’t going to be effective against a Tier 4 Dragon so they invest another 2 Coin to make it Tier 4. This will net them a Special Armor box against the Tier 4 magic. They tick it to Resist the Fire Breath Complication.

So instead of taking Harm 3, they’ll take Harm 1 (orthodox Blades would only throttle this back 1, but my game will be high fantasy go more robust heroes and resistance). In order to do that, they’ve spent:

1 Loadout Box

• their only Floating Loadout Box (which means tough luck if they need something else later in a pinch)
• 1 Stress
• 3 Coin

And this is all assuming that they had the Loadout to spend.

Thanks! That helps a lot.

What I was thinking about with the ring of protection was not creating one from scratch. I was approaching it from a D&D perspective where you might have multiple magic rings, but can only wear two of them. Say you got to the place you are going while wearing a ring of water walking and a ring of flying. The ring of protection is in your pocket with no time to remove a ring and put the new one on. I was envisioning was a flashback where during planning you instead of wearing the water walking ring, chose to wear the protection ring.

 

[Manbearcat]

Thanks! That helps a lot.

What I was thinking about with the ring of protection was not creating one from scratch. I was approaching it from a D&D perspective where you might have multiple magic rings, but can only wear two of them. Say you got to the place you are going while wearing a ring of water walking and a ring of flying. The ring of protection is in your pocket with no time to remove a ring and put the new one on. I was envisioning was a flashback where during planning you instead of wearing the water walking ring, chose to wear the protection ring.

Gotcha.

In orthodox Blades you only declare Light, Normal, Heavy, Encumbered Loadout at the outset of a Score.

Each of those carries implications on your conspicuousness, # of Loadout boxes you can tick during a Score, how quickly you do stuff during the Score.

As you play you tick boxes to declare stuff that you have on you which will be stuff that is either on your inventory list (each PC has an inventory list) or an Asset you’ve Acquired via Downtime.

My game is different. You do the same thing except you have to declare gear beforehand except 1 item (which would be handled like Blades with a few provisos on the implication of your present Loadout).

However, something like a Ring of Protection would be 0 Load (and provide you 1 Special Armor against a supernatural effect...1 box to tick during the Adventure to resist a Supernatural Consequence meaning you don’t have to go through the typical Resistsance procedure and likely lose Stress), so you would always load it out.

I would be surprised if any PC ever ended up with more than 1 ring in one of my games. DW and the like aren’t like D&D. Magic items are scarce. I think I’ve seen...2 rings...in all the games I’ve run (spread out among probably 40 PCs)?