What is the point of GM's notes?

[Maxperson]

How would you declare any of those actions if you hadn't first learned what was written in the GM's notes?

EDIT: @prabe made the point before I did:

It doesn't matter. The game still isn't about discovering the DM's notes. Will you discover some of them? Sure. Will you bend them to your will and force the DM to respond to YOUR actions and YOUR desires? Absolutely(if you're at all proactive). The game is about the players self-oriented goals, not the subservient component of the DM's notes.

 

[Maxperson]

@Maxperson, @Bedrockgames, here is the post that I replied to:



Where is the unfairness or pejorative in what I say. In a GMed RPG, what else would "exploring" and "learning about a new world" consist in?

Here are some posts from Maxperson:


The two of you seem to assume that these describe the same thing that @Emerikol described. Why? To me they seem to be describing something quite different. Emerikol says I want to learn about a new world and explore it. Maxperson says I'm not playing to discover what's going on with those tribes. Those look like contradictory descriptions, not synonymous ones.

It seems relevant to this that Emerikol's approach depends upon there being pre-authored notes, where Maxperson's does not and seems like it would be equally well-served by "no myth" RPGing.

I'm willing to bet that if I were in @Emerikol's game and I "discovered" those barbarians, he'd let me attempt my goals as I described above.

 

[pemerton]

I'm willing to bet that if I were in @Emerikol's game and I "discovered" those barbarians, he'd let me attempt my goals as I described above.

How does this respond to my point? Which was that "Emerikol says I want to learn about a new world and explore it. Maxperson says I'm not playing to discover what's going on with those tribes. Those look like contradictory descriptions, not synonymous ones."

 

[Maxperson]

How does this respond to my point? Which was that "Emerikol says I want to learn about a new world and explore it. Maxperson says I'm not playing to discover what's going on with those tribes. Those look like contradictory descriptions, not synonymous ones."

Nothing contradictory about it. HE wants to learn about the world and explore it. Those are his CHOSEN(not DM notes) goals. The DM notes don't control him, either. HE gets to decide where and what he is looking for. Maybe he will find it. Maybe he won't. But in any case the DM has to respond to his goals and actions. The DM's notes are subservient to those.

 

[Ovinomancer]

How does this respond to my point? Which was that "Emerikol says I want to learn about a new world and explore it. Maxperson says I'm not playing to discover what's going on with those tribes. Those look like contradictory descriptions, not synonymous ones."

I suspect the issue is that "GM's notes" has been associated with "outcomes the GM wants," and the argument flows from this very specific version of "GM's notes." Any points made to show that there's still plenty of GM's notes being explored will likely be met with some response predicated on this construct of GM's notes as planned outcomes.

 

[pemerton]

Nothing contradictory about it. HE wants to learn about the world and explore it. Those are his CHOSEN(not DM notes) goals. The DM notes don't control him, either. HE gets to decide where and what he is looking for. Maybe he will find it. Maybe he won't. But in any case the DM has to respond to his goals and actions. The DM's notes are subservient to those.

What would the world consist in, if not matters set out in the GM's notes? @Emerikol has made it quite clear that he won't like it if the GM just makes it up.

 

[pemerton]

I suspect the issue is that "GM's notes" has been associated with "outcomes the GM wants," and the argument flows from this very specific version of "GM's notes."

In the OP I distinguished "descriptions of imaginary places; mechanical labels and categories applied to imaginary people or imaginary phenomena; descriptions or lists of imaginary events, some of which are imagined to have already happened relative to the fiction of play and some of which are imagined as yet to happen relative that fiction".

It is clearly the first of those that is especially salient in @Emerikol's case, though I suspect the others also figure in his RPGing.

 

[Maxperson]

What would the world consist in, if not matters set out in the GM's notes? @Emerikol has made it quite clear that he won't like it if the GM just makes it up.

It doesn't matter if the world is made up of the DM's notes. The DM's notes are subservient to the players' goals. I(and Emerikol) get to use those notes for our purposes, not the DMs. We are not playing to discover what he wrote down. Unless such discovery is part of the goals WE set.

 

[Manbearcat]

It doesn't matter if the world is made up of the DM's notes. The DM's notes are subservient to the players' goals. I(and Emerikol) get to use those notes for our purposes, not the DMs. We are not playing to discover what he wrote down. Unless such discovery is part of the goals WE set.

You're starting a new game as a Fighter in a BECMI/RC or AD&D Sandbox or Hexcrawl game.

You were beseeched (and paid) by the last surviving member of a caravan (a merchant) to explore a ruin to the SE. The merchant believes their guards and goods were taken there by the ambushers.

You go.

You uncover some horrible truth with grave implications in the delving.

You return and head directly to the palace to request an audience with the king. After earnestly parleying with the Chamberlain, you're rebuffed (no dice are rolled).

---

The city where you meet the merchant = GM Notes.

The merchant and his/her story = GM Notes.

The parley with and acceptance of the merchant's pleading/offer = Player decision-point.

What equipment or hirelings is/are available for purchase when you loadout for the delve = GM Notes.

How you spend your available coin = Player decision-points.

No Random Encounters on the road to the ruin = GM Notes

The map and key of the ruin/delve itself = GM Notes.

The players' loadout and execution of character and party moves during the delve = Player decision-points.

The ruin/delve's response to the PCs' delving = GM Notes.

Random Encounter on the road back from the ruin = GM Notes.

The player's execution of character and party moves during the Random Encounter = Player decision-points.

The circumstances/orientation of the city when you return from the delve = GM Notes.

Go see the king = Player decision-point.

The Chamberlain receiving you = GM Notes.

The parley with the Chamberlain = Player decision-point.

The Chamberlain rebuffing you (the GM "saying no") with no dice being rolled = GM Notes.

---

Agree or disagree with this formulation above? If so, where and why?

How do the below constituent parts of the above manifest as subservient to the players' goals (I have some ideas on a few of them, but not all)?

* The city.

* The merchant and his/her story.

* The equipment/hirelings available.

* The Random Encounter frequency/table for the road.

* The map and key of the ruin.

* The Wandering Monsters for the ruin and the ruin's response to the PCs' delving.

* The situation in the city when the PCs return.

* The nature of the Chamberlain and logistics of reception.

* The Chamberlain rebuffing you without action resolution mechanics being invoked.

 

[Maxperson]

You're starting a new game as a Fighter in a BECMI/RC or AD&D Sandbox or Hexcrawl game.

You were beseeched (and paid) by the last surviving member of a caravan (a merchant) to explore a ruin to the SE. The merchant believes their guards and goods were taken there by the ambushers.

You go.

You uncover some horrible truth with grave implications in the delving.

You return and head directly to the palace to request an audience with the king. After earnestly parleying with the Chamberlain, you're rebuffed (no dice are rolled).

---

The city where you meet the merchant = GM Notes.

The merchant and his/her story = GM Notes.

The parley with and acceptance of the merchant's pleading/offer = Player decision-point.

What equipment or hirelings is/are available for purchase when you loadout for the delve = GM Notes.

How you spend your available coin = Player decision-points.

No Random Encounters on the road to the ruin = GM Notes

The map and key of the ruin/delve itself = GM Notes.

The players' loadout and execution of character and party moves during the delve = Player decision-points.

The ruin/delve's response to the PCs' delving = GM Notes.

Random Encounter on the road back from the ruin = GM Notes.

The player's execution of character and party moves during the Random Encounter = Player decision-points.

The circumstances/orientation of the city when you return from the delve = GM Notes.

Go see the king = Player decision-point.

The Chamberlain receiving you = GM Notes.

The parley with the Chamberlain = Player decision-point.

The Chamberlain rebuffing you (the GM "saying no") with no dice being rolled = GM Notes.

---

Agree or disagree with this formulation above? If so, where and why?

How do the below constituent parts of the above manifest as subservient to the players' goals (I have some ideas on a few of them, but not all)?

* The city.

* The merchant and his/her story.

* The equipment/hirelings available.

* The Random Encounter frequency/table for the road.

* The map and key of the ruin.

* The Wandering Monsters for the ruin and the ruin's response to the PCs' delving.

* The situation in the city when the PCs return.

* The nature of the Chamberlain and logistics of reception.

* The Chamberlain rebuffing you without action resolution mechanics being invoked.

The short, easy answer is that it's all there for me to use or ignore as I like. I didn't have to take that job.

The city exists for me to use for my goals. Whatever I decide, the city is a resource to help me achieve that. Whether it's simple outfitting, finding a contact, going to the library to research information I need/want, or whatever, the city is there for me(and the other players.)

The merchant and his story exist to give me options. I can opt to help him or not, make him a contact or not, purchase from him or not. It's my choice and his existence is there to facilitate my goals if he is capable or to ignore in that regard if he's not.

Equipment and hirelings are covered by the above as well.

Encounters, random or otherwise, serve as a challenge for my character and to help him grow in power to accomplish his goals.

The map and key I don't see in your story, so I'm not sure in what context they came to me. However, they are potential resources to help me achieve my goals. Perhaps I need money and/or goodwill to accomplish what I want to do in the world and they can help me.

What situation in the city when I return? Wanting to speak with the king? If so, that's my choice.

The conversation with the chamberlain is simply game play. Sometimes you succeed and sometimes you don't.