What is the point of GM's notes?

[Bedrockgames]

In what @Maxperson describes, it seems to be of no matter when the world is created, or what methodology is used.

This is quite different from @Emerikol, who has clearly described a methodology. With express comparison to learning what has been written in a novel.

I haven't been following Emerikols posts so I can't weigh in on those. But, and MaxPerson can weigh in if I am wrong, that there is a world created to explore seems to matter very much. I think all he is trying to draw your attention to is how much the players actions impact the course of the game, what happens within that world, etc. A lot of sandbox GMs for example talk about smashing the setting, destroying the scenery, etc. Allowing the players to do that is an essential concept in a sandbox game, and while I don't know if Maxperson would say what he is doing is sandbox, what is describing sounds a lot like smashing the scenery. What he is talking about is the player characters exerting their agency in the setting. Again, Maxperson can weigh in if I am wrong, but there is generally an expected sense of fair play the players want when they doing that as they explore a world. If the GM is just making up all of the world as he goes, then it doesn't feel real enough (it is literally just a world produced by their actions). There should be some concrete in there. But no GM creation is going to be exhaustive. The GM may know there are hill tribes to the north. He may not have thought through all the details about that hill tribe, and as they players go there and interact with them, ask questions, the GM is expected to refine some elements of the world in those moments (and generally it is expected to follow logically from the things already laid down). That isn't playing to discover the GMs notes at all. And further, the NPCs you may have down on the page, say the hill tribe chief, are just as free to move around and do things as the players. The players are not simply discovering what's in the players (EDIT: GM's) notes if midway through the session the hill tribe chief hatches a plan to steal an artifact the PCs possess (this may be an even neither the GM nor the players foresaw until some spark ignited it in their meeting with the hill tribe). Again it is the energy, the life, the interaction, the ability of players to actually shape setting through their characters, that is the point of play. The point of play isn't to discover what is in the GMs binder. That is an enormously misleading and uncharitable characterization of the activity

And importantly that energy isn't limited to sandbox play. It exists in most types of play where the GM is expected to prep things (even in things like adventure paths)

 

[Bedrockgames]

"I think you think you are describing something accurately but not seeing how your bias is shaping your analysis."

I've explained in a few posts why your characterization isn't accurate. But one final point of elaboration, if you play the kinds of games pemerton (Edit: Maxperson) and I do, and even if you play adventure paths or meta plot adventures I think, as playing to discover the GMs notes, they are going to be very different games than the ones we run. I've played in games where the GM was effectively doing that or getting very close, where it feels like all you are doing is discovering the GM notes. And I think that is due more to a very non-fluid, rigid style of GMing that stops at the GMs notes, holds them in a kind of stasis. Those notes are just tools for remembering what exists in the scenario/world/adventure etc. They aren't met to be unchangeable things. They adapt and evolve in different ways for different reasons (depending on the playstyle). You are mistaking a tool of the style, for the style itself (and frankly the framing is pretty insulting)

 

[pemerton]

I haven't been following Emerikols posts so I can't weigh in on those.

In that case why are you attacking my replies to him, if you don't even know what I'm replying to?

 

[Maxperson]

@Maxperson, there's nothing you're describing about your play goals that would differ if the GM had no notes at all. You're not describing the same sort of thing as @Emerikol.

The point, which you seem to be missing, is that these play goals can and do happen WITH DM notes. Your style isn't required for players to be able to assert their own goals and make the world their own play place.

 

[Aldarc]

In that case why are you attacking my replies to him, if you don't even know what I'm replying to?

You must be wrong on the general principle that you are pemerton.

 

[Maxperson]

This claim clearly isn't true. If it was true, then no one would think there's any difference between (say) no-myth-ish Dungeon World or Burning Wheel and (say) notes-heavy D&D or CoC.

Context..........................context. You asked a question, so I answered it in that context. For someone who prides himself on his language skills, I would have thought you would understand context. In the context of your question to me, the notes don't matter.

 

[Maxperson]

In what @Maxperson describes, it seems to be of no matter when the world is created, or what methodology is used.

This is quite different from @Emerikol, who has clearly described a methodology. With express comparison to learning what has been written in a novel.

When the world is created matters for the feel of the world to a lot of people. When the world is created doesn't create a situation where the players are playing to "discover the DM's notes." It's possible to play a game like that, but such a game is not created simply by virtue of heavy prep.

 

[Bedrockgames]

In that case why are you attacking my replies to him, if you don't even know what I'm replying to?

I was responding to your exchange with Maxperson and the general assertions I saw you make

 

[Imaro]

This strikes me as almost a difference without a distinction.

It seemed like quite a big distinction but maybe I can help you grasp it better with an example of said distinction...

DM NOTES: Hrothgar of the Howing winds is the leader of the Wolf Nomads

Playing to discover the DM's notes would be, through play, discovering said information perhaps by visiting the lands of the Wolf Nomads, or researching the lineage of the Wolf Nomad leaders or... well I think you get the picture.

However the minute I as a player... Usurp the leadership from Hrothgar of the Howling Winds, aid Hrothgar in also claiming the leadership of the Deer Clans, assassinate Hrothgar for his son to claim leadership or to destabilize the Wolf tribe so an invading army can wipe it out... or take any one of numerous actions through my character that changes/modifies or creates a difference in the world... I am no longer "playing to find out what's in the GM's notes".

It is this distinction that I believe @Bedrockgames is trying to make (please feel free to correct me if my take is incorrect). A descriptor of "Play to find out what's in the GM's notes" in no way takes into account the ability of players to change and/or create their own "notes" in accordance with the GM's, something that heavy prep style does not in and of itself preclude from happening... thus it is a mischaracterization of what actually happens in the playstyle. Is the distinction more clear now??

 

[Bedrockgames]

It is this distinction that I believe @Bedrockgames is trying to make (please feel free to correct me if my take is incorrect). A descriptor of "Play to find out what's in the GM's notes" in no way takes into account the ability of players to change and/or create their own "notes" in accordance with the GM's, something that heavy prep style does not in and of itself preclude from happening... thus it is a mischaracterization of what actually happens in the playstyle. Is the distinction more clear now??

It is this but also the fact that the GM is an active 'player' in the game too, putting the world, its characters, and its factions into motion. There is an energy at the table that is the focus. The worldbuidling, the prep, the notes are all in service to one another and to the energy that arises during play