What is the Problem with Union!

[Orius]

Don't have ELH, but Union sounds like "teh suck". I'd have to say that is DOES sound pointless. Even as a retirement community for epic characters, it sounds to trite and silly to make sense.

Some of the cool ideas, like it being a demiplane where the mercane congregate as a central trading hub is cool and I might use it in a larger cosmology, but not in the given form.

 

[Odhanan]

The difference is that Tanelorn was designed by someone with talent. Union seems like it was designed by the twelve year old DM some of us once were.

That's harsh criticism. Even an insult. We don't need to go there, even if I agree on the substance of your intervention. Union feels bland and unoriginal. Tanelorn is pure genius.

 

[Imruphel]

Nope, that wasn't an insult. Union does feel like it was designed by a twelve year old.

 

[Aaron L]

"And it'll have 25th level policemen!!!"


Yeah. 12.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

They don't actually have to be evil for this - but if you were to meet a person who could kill you merely by looking at you, wouldn't you fear him, too, no matter how pleasant he acts at the moment?

This was depicted in the old movie "The Man Who Would Be King." In it, 2 British soldiers (played by Sean Connery & Michael Caine) are mistaken for gods. Near the end, one of them tries to marry one of the local lasses...who freaks the out...to be touched by a god means to burn to death from the power within them.

As I said, I'm surprised that Tanelorn wasn't brought up earlier. It strikes me as more like an "epic city" than Union, in concept if not in relative power. Sure, there are probably an infinite number of Tanelorns on the various parallel planes, or at least "shadows" of some original Tanelorn somewhere (much as there were countless "shadows" of Amber, in Roger Zelazny's "Amber" novels). The trick is to determine the common denominators of these "hero's rest" cities

Well, my recollection of Amber and Tanelorn is that most of the inhabitants were mere mortals, no different than any other city you could name. What differed was that the "heroic" types were among the few who could easily come and go...most natives never left the confines of the cities in question. The heroes were all epic, of course, and worth dozens (if not thousands) of normal folk.

 

[I'm A Banana]

There is a deep, fundamental design flaw with the ELH that Union shows of to a great degree:

"Epic level characters will do pretty much the same things as 1-20th level characters."

This is a SERIOUS misconception about what people who make it to that high of a level want out of their gaming experience.

EXALTED is pretty much epic D&D done right.

 

[rounser]

The problem with Union is it failed to be epic in the classic sense of the word.

Okay, we've established that your hate of union know no limit, and that it fails in every aspect of game.

How can an epic city work?

I have one idea, and a few problems:

An idea: A Skullport-like monstrous city, where you don't visit unless you're tough enough to survive anyway. More slave traders than fishmongers, but the fishmonger (a fifteenth level half-troll, say) charges a lot of coin because even slave traders need to eat.* A place like this is less a city where people live than a point of commerce; no-one would be raising kids there.

Problem 1: The only problem with this is that it requires a nigh-invincible police force (just like Skullport) to stop the place descending into chaos immediately. If you do that, the place can't be treated like a dungeon, which is unfortunate. It also leads to....

Problem 2: A problem with any epic level good (or even neutral or evil, given motivation) NPCs is that they create the metagame problem of being able to sort out any plot device that the PCs fail to handle. I don't think WOTC has a solution to this problem else they wouldn't have written Eberron the way they did. Again, this severely limits the usefulness of the city as an adventuring environment.

* Problem 3: An issue raised earlier in this thread: there's a limit to fish economics, even among hungry slave traders. Selling fish for 100gp each is silly, but what else would a fifteenth level character see as worth his or her while to sell fish for? Perhaps it's best to just bite the bullet, and assume that the fishmonger (and the baker, and the candlestick maker) is going to be low level, and probably die sooner or later....but that there are five others ready to replace him, because the money is so good. This raises the question of what professions are lucrative enough to attract high level professionals....most of these are probably illicit, and magic-related....and because of problem 2 (and assuming we can find a solution to problem 1 and treat the place like a dungeon) almost exclusively involve evil NPCs. Magical banks, magic item auctions, exotic monster trading and necromancy all suggest themselves as potential businesses suitable for high level NPCs.

 

[I'm A Banana]

How can an epic city work?

I think the greatest flaw that lies in making an epic city work is in assuming that epic level characters are common enough to need their own city.

If such a thing were to come about in the world, the epic city would be like Asgard or Olympus or Underhill or The Land Far West or something. Something distant, untouchable, unreachable, and, above all, inhabited by people everyone knows are better than them, who do things far beyond the common ken.

An epic city can't work on economics and organizations. It has to work on a godly scale, not a mortal one.

 

[green slime]

I disagree with rounser regarding some of his premises for an Epic City:

Problem1: I don't think it needs a nigh invinceable police force. It just needs a series of factions with enough weight behind them to curtail the activities of the bold and reckless to a limited degree. A set of unwritten rules, that provide a modicum of balance that encourages enough calm for "business as usual." Using a multitude of factions (not just two), enables underhanded politics to hold sway over those who would become too obviously powerful.

Problem 2: Good Epic level NPCs have their own concerns to deal with. Seriously this cannot be an issue, or ultimately the Celestials and Divinities would be running around handling "plot devices the PC's fail to handle." Same argument applies. They are busy with their own agendas.

Problem 3: Are your epic level characters really worrying about where they are getting their fish!?? Its in the sea, someone goes out and drags it back to shore. Or an Epic Level Magician likes sushi so drains the sea bed of water, and sends children out to pick the fish up. The surplus after his sushi dinner they can keep. Its not that great a concern.

The problem is the high level NPC commoner. An oxymoron.

 

[Yair]

The problem is the high level NPC commoner. An oxymoron.

Like this? [sblock]Almonee, the Forgotten CR86
Male Old Human Commoner 20/Shadowdancer 9/Void Incarnate 10/Expert 20/Aristocrat 20/Warrior 8
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Uses SRD, including Epic section, the Void Incarnate PrC from WotC's site, and Flaws from Dragon.
Senses darkvision 60 feet; Listen +8, Spot +8
Languages Common
---
AC 35 [+12 Dex+8 armor+5 deflection], touch 27, flat-footed 23; Concealment 50% [feats]
Hp 1365 hp (20d4+9d8+10d6+20d6+20d8+8d8 HD+1044); DR 15/-
Immunne mind-affecting and information gathering divinations [blank mind], force effects [empty form], impeded movement
Fort+74 [+6 base+40 epic +12 Con+10 resistance+6 feats], Ref +74 [+6 base+40 epic +12 Dex+10 resistance+6 feats], Will +70 [+6 base+40 epic +8 Wis+10 resistance+6 feats]
---
Init always last [Unimportant NPC]; Spd 30 ft
Melee Scythe +58/+53 (2d4+1 19-20/x4) [+2 (+2d6+2) vs. plants]
Base Atk +50 [10+40 epic]; GRP +51
Atk Options power attack
Combat Gear
+4 Plant Bane Keen Scythe of Brilliant Energy
---
Abilities Str 13 [11-3 age +5 inherent], Dex 35 [13-3 age +5 inherent+10 level+10 enhancement], Con 35 [12-3 age+5 inherent+11 level+10 enhancement], Int 17 [10+5 inherent+2 age], Wis 26 [9+2 age+5 inherent+10 enhancement], Cha 15 [8+5 inherent+2 age]
SQ fast healing 9
Flaws Unimportant NPC, Peasant Hat
Feats Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Damage Reduction x 5, Dexterous Will, Dodge, Epic Dodge, Epic Fortitude, Epic Reflexes, Epic Will, Epic Skill Focus (Profession: farmer), Epic Weapon Focus (scythe), Fast Healing x 3, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Martial Weapon Proficiency (scythe), Power Attack, Proficiency (scythe), Mobility, Self Concealment x 5, Skill Focus (Profession: farmer)
Skills Bluff +26 [24], Diplomacy -13 [-15 peasant hat], Escape Artist +36 [24], Heal +70 [62], Hide +102 [90], Knowledge (local) +9 [6], Move Silently +102 [90], Perform (dance) +7 [5], Profession (farmer) +145 [90+13 feats+30 competence], Ride +17 [5], Swim +6 [5], Tumble +94 [82]
---
Possessions (4,589,718 gp)
Tome of X +5 have all been read (0 gp)
Boots of Dexterity +10 (1,000,000 gp), +30 Move Silently (135,000 gp)
Belt of Constitution +10 (1,000,000 gp)
Periapt of Wisdom +10 (1,000,000 gp)
Cloak of Resistance +10 (1,000,000 gp)
Scythe (318 gp) of Farming (+30 to skill, 135,000 gp) +4 Plant Bane (+1) Brilliant Energy (+4) Keen (+1) (200,000 gp) (in total 335,318 gp). This item is cursed: the character wielding it may not cast any spells, and must add at least one level as a Commoner if he doesn't already have one. The weapon's blade is usually withdrawn, leaving only the shaft; the energy blade manifests on command.
Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000 gp)
Ring of Protection +5 (50,000 gp)
Sustaining Spoon (5,400 gp)

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: He is proficient with all martial and simple weapons, and with all shields (but not tower shields). In addition, he is proficient with hand crossbows.
Peasant Hat: In addition to a -15 penalty to Diplomacy, other PCs in the party can command him once per day (no save). He never removes the hat.
Unimportant NPC: He has no name (Almonee is “someone” in the Common tongue), is never included in the division of treasure, and always goes last (if someone remembers to include him at all).
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind, even while being observed.
Improved Evasion(Ex): If exposed to any effect that normally allows him to attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage, he takes no damage with a successful saving throw, and half on a failed save.
Darkvision(Su): A shadowdancer can see in the dark as though under the effect of a darkvision spell.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A shadowdancer retains his Dexterity bonus to AC when flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. He cannot be flanked, except by a rouge of at least level 13.
Shadow Illusion(Sp): Once per day, a shadowdancer may cast silent image (CL 9).
Summon Shadow(Su): As a shadowdancer he may summon a shadow, except it's alignment is NG and it cannot spawn, and is advanced by +4 HD. If it is destroyed, he loses 1800 XP (Fort DC 15 half). Almnonee does not currently have a shadow.
Shadow Jump (Su): As a shadowdancer he can jump up to 80 feet between shadows as if by dimension door (10 feet minimum).
Defensive Roll(Ex): Once per day, when he would be reduced to 0 hp or less from a blow, Reflex DC=damage he takes half damage.
Slippery Mind(Ex): If affected by an enhancement and fails his saving throw, 1 round later she can retry it.
Blank Aura (Ex): He and his equipment radiate no aura of any kind. As a standard action, he can extend this to two more willing creatures within 30 feet for 24 hours.
Void Presence(Ex): Opponents unconsciously ignore him, and are always flat-footed, except for a round if he attacks them (mind-affecting). Gather Information on him suffers a -30 penalty.
Improved Mettle of Fortitude (Ex): If exposed to any effect that allows a Fortitude save for a partial or half effect, he suffers no effect with a successful saving throw, and only partial or half effect on a failed save.
Blank Mind (Ex): He is protected by mind blank at all times. He can extend this to one creature within 30 feet for 24 hours, as a standard action.
Improved Mettle of Will (Ex): If exposed to any effect that allows a Will save for a partial or half effect, he suffers no effect with a successful saving throw, and only partial partial or half effect on a failed save.
Null Strike(Ex): Once per day, he may declare any melee or ranged attack he makes to be a touch attack.
Empty Form(Ex): He has a permanent freedom of movement effect on him at all times. He is immune to force effects.

Kolshadai's personal servant is an easily-forgettable old man with a peasant's hat, leaning against a heavy, curled, long shaft of wood. Those that will look at him may notice his worn but quality attire, a sturdy cloak, and even some jewelry (a ring, periapt, and bracers); none seem magical. They may also notice the “walking stick” to be a heavy combat scythe's shaft. In combat, a brilliant energy blade springs from the shaft. He is surprisingly agile and healthy, especially for his age.
But the servant is often dismissed and ignored, even in the midst of battle. Usually, no one even notices or remembers he is around - including the players.
His paces are light and almost inaudible (Move Silently 107, usually), and he is unnoticed and effectively invisible (Concealment 50%).

He may use his Heal to quicken recovery (2-3 hp per level in one hour) up to six characters. He may Hide and Move Silently up to his Speed at a -5 penalty. He can make 77 gp per week plying his trade as a farmer, implying he does the work of 770 farmers. Using Tumble he may ignore any falling damage, and gains +22 to AC in total defense, or +8 when fighting defensively.[/sblock]
He's a cohort for a level 100 character I once made for a game that never did come to be.

An epic city should be either alike to Heaven or Hell in glory and supernatural high fantasy, or a place with epic threats. A city full of epic characters is NOT en apic city.