What is the Problem with Union!

[painandgreed]

I mean, if it's an epic city and the cook is level 15, that means he has 59,000gp. Why doesn't he retire? What else could he possibly want and if he's just a cook, where did he get all that money?

Maybe he is retired. They're all retired. The epic level fighter that is the fishmonger is retired. He doesn't want to rule a kingdom or fight anymre dragons. He's done. he just wants to settle down and do what he enjoys doing, fishing. He uses his powers to gate fish around because that's the way he likes it done. He doesn't charge money because he needs it. After all, he's retired with a couple of dragon hordes locked away. He just charges a token amount of money because that is the way things are done and everybody pays it because it's no real issue.

With all the talk about being Epic and towering so far above everybody that you could kill by looking at them, wouldn't it be nice to go someplace where you could just relax and fish? No more responsiblity. No more worries. Everybody around you is a peer once again and you can go to a tavern and talk and joke without everybody bowing, scraping, and defering to your every word.

Perhaps union is a retirement village for the epic, a place where they can go and forget, or at least not be reminded that they are epic. They show up and do whatever it is they want to do almost like acting in a play. They don't really need guards but Sgt. Galahad has taken it upon himself to preform that role so everybody knows who to talk to if there is trouble. Everybody knows the halfling is a cat burgler, but he never steals anything of real value and people find it cute to set little traps and tricks for him to be defeat. Every now and then, adventurers pass through and then leave. Later, soem might return to settle down to replace the couple that decided to leave to have children in a place more suitable for them.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Wow. I've never looked at the ELH but if that is an example of what I can expect from it I think I am glad I haven't read it.

Of course I've never really subscribed to the notion that characters suddenly become super powerful because they hit 21st level.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Perhaps union is a retirement village for the epic, a place where they can go and forget, or at least not be reminded that they are epic.

I dunno - a place like Union with so many epic-level people is likely to attract lots of trouble, especially in the form of the other inhabitants. If they really want a quiet retirement spot, then their best bet is to find some remote prime material plane where no one has ever heard of them, and then try to blend in with the population as much as possible...

 

[painandgreed]

I dunno - a place like Union with so many epic-level people is likely to attract lots of trouble, especially in the form of the other inhabitants. If they really want a quiet retirement spot, then their best bet is to find some remote prime material plane where no one has ever heard of them, and then try to blend in with the population as much as possible...

I thought about that too, but the matter of the fact is that such trouble will hunt them down where ever they live. Better to live in an epic town with epic neighbors than have the entire city you live in die when Dragotha the Epic Undead Dragon swoops down with an aura effect that kills anything under 5 hit dice within 1 mile. No matter where they live, unless they want to be hermits out in the middle of nowhere, life comes with issues. By leveling the field, they become managable not only for yourself but also don't destroy all those around you as collateral damage. Normal people live together and maintain civilization, surely epic people can too and if somebody causes too much trouble, they get punished or kicked out just as they would in a normal society.

 

[prosfilaes]

Everybody around you is a peer once again and you can go to a tavern and talk and joke without everybody bowing, scraping, and defering to your every word.

The problem is, in a feudal society, I don't think you could ever escape class issues. People who have been trained from birth to know who to bow to and who to expect bowing from are not going to accept this broad idea of peerdom.

Everybody knows the halfling is a cat burgler, but he never steals anything of real value and people find it cute to set little traps and tricks for him to be defeat.

Most people don't like being cute. You put up some cute little traps and tricks for them, they'll steal the Wand of Orcus from under your pellow.

 

[prosfilaes]

I thought about that too, but the matter of the fact is that such trouble will hunt them down where ever they live. Better to live in an epic town with epic neighbors than have the entire city you live in die when Dragotha the Epic Undead Dragon swoops down with an aura effect that kills anything under 5 hit dice within 1 mile.

How often does Dragotha the Epic Undead Dragon show up? And what's to stop Orcus and a branch of the Blood War from showing up at Union? There's probably enough magical artifacts in Union to literally create a god; that could attract a lot more attention than Dragotha. Do you really want to be in an epic city when 10,000 CR 25 demons hit town?

 

[Aaron L]

Hey! What's wrong with immature and illogical?

It hasnt gotten me very far in life so far!

 

[Oryan77]

Not many greybeards know this on the planes, but Union is actually the donut hole that used to be the center of Sigil. That was the ward where all of the epic beings in Sigil would mingle to get away from the common planers. The Lady of Pain just couldn't come up with a logical reason why that ward would exist even in Sigil; so she cut it out and hoped noone would notice.

Somehow, some primes from Earth found Union and told everyone about it in hopes it would make them rich & famous. To make things worse, it's now considered a city instead of a ward. Most planars hope that if they ignore it, it'll go away for good. If it wasn't for those primes, it would've worked the first time.

-Cyriss, of the Fated

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Wow. I've never looked at the ELH but if that is an example of what I can expect from it I think I am glad I haven't read it.

Union is the worst part of the book. Others in this thread have articulated quite well the reasons why. There are actually some interesting ideas in the ELH, though. The monsters are a good example. However, the book is flawed, in my opinion, which leads to the other part of your post:

Of course I've never really subscribed to the notion that characters suddenly become super powerful because they hit 21st level.

They don't. Matter of fact, it strikes me that the ELH really errs very much on the safe side. Epic advancement doesn't grant uber-powers, it just gradually scales up what characters can already do. The book would've been better had they actually given epic-level characters more spectacular powers.

 

[Psion]

Wow. I've never looked at the ELH but if that is an example of what I can expect from it I think I am glad I haven't read it.

It is pretty much the worst part of the book.

Not that I don't think there aren't other parts of the book could be improved, but some stuff, like the creatures, I liked very much.