What is the Problem with Union!

Union is too shortly described, not original and not epic (in the common sense of the word) whatsoever. It's just a cliched town which citizens have powerful stats.

That's not what "epic" means to me. ELH is very much a mirror of this as well. I don't think the system falls apart or that "bad", and I haven't ever played at epic levels to confirm or not, but the big problem is the feel of it all. It isn't "epic" at all. It's just D&D but with +45 instead of +5 to damage rolls. Sorta.
 

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prosfilaes said:
How often does Dragotha the Epic Undead Dragon show up? And what's to stop Orcus and a branch of the Blood War from showing up at Union? There's probably enough magical artifacts in Union to literally create a god; that could attract a lot more attention than Dragotha. Do you really want to be in an epic city when 10,000 CR 25 demons hit town?

Dragotha only needs to show up once to destroy your kingdom and all your loved ones. If you have epic enemies, do you really want to be surrounded by people who are just treated by them as terrain to be moved through? Epic level heros will share many of the troubles that modern day superheroes face, however secret identities won't really be an option since most of your coming into power will be a matter of public record if not a subject of bard's tales. One can always flee and hide, but the first time they have to display their powers due to a wandering monster or an enemy finds them, they'll have to do it again. Otherwise, word will get out, rumors will spread and eventually people will show up looking to make a name for themselves if nothing else. They might not even be near a match for the epic character in hiding, but chances are they'll take out those around the epic character first or in the attempt.

Why would a bunch of demons not want to attack a city full of epic heros (who probably have made a life of killing demons) with enough magic items to create a god? Hrrm. What ever could cause them to hesitate for an instant when so many artifacts of mass destruction are just sitting there for anybody to walk in and carry away? Two things come to mind. One, logistics. their armies of demons are needed elsewhere and if they headed to Union, then their enemies would swarm in to the space they were defending previously. Two, fortification. With any township, I don't think that it is too far a stretch of the imagination to suppose that they built fortifications of some sort to defend against their enemies. I admit that I don't have the book, nor read the book, and will never buy the book but I don't think that it is too much to assume that an epic city would fortify itself with epic defences just as a normal city would foritify itself with a castle and walls.
 

prosfilaes said:
Do you really want to be in an epic city when 10,000 CR 25 demons hit town?

Uh... Allow me just to say, Heck Yes! In fact, I would bet that epic cities can afford to arrange for 10,000 CR 25 demons to roll through town once a year or so. You know as a sort of holiday, the running of the demon lords... or whatever.

Later
silver
 

Ack, showed up for this discussion a few days late. Anyway, it's not a direct answer, but back before the ELH, my group had an interesting thought; where do high-level players retire? Sure, some would want to run kingdoms and such, but not all. Some would want to retire to their homelands, but not all. And really, having low-levels fawning all over you could get tiring, and once you get to near-Epic status, do you REALLY want to live in a town where every random person asks you for help, getting their cats out of trees or raising their dead relatives?

So, we whipped up something that ended up being a bit like Union. A town, located at a particularly inaccessible part of the world, surrounded by dangerous wildlife, and where far more of the people were high level than normal. Why? It's a quality of life issue; if you're a Fighter, you have to admit that there's an appeal to being someplace where True Resurrection is easily available, or where people could Teleport you to see your relatives, but where you don't have to feel the burden of being THE hero in town.

The thing was, it wasn't just a scaled-up town. If you've already accepted that a half-dozen adventurers could wipe out an invading army, then what do you need a standing army for? Just hire the locals as needed. If a diviner could figure out exactly who stole an item, do you really need a big police force? If a spellcaster can Fabricate anything in moments, do you need lots of craft guilds? And if everyone already has tons of money and the ability to create food and water with magic, why even bother selling produce in the market? (Unless it's really rare stuff, of course). Basically, then, this became a loosely-run CN town that held together because most people who lived there accepted that it was a good setup for them; someone high-level breaks the rules, and EVERYONE tracks them down.

When I first heard of Union, I thought it was going to be like this, but more so. Instead, we got what we got.
 

Spatzimaus said:
Ack, showed up for this discussion a few days late. Anyway, it's not a direct answer, but back before the ELH, my group had an interesting thought; where do high-level players retire?

It kinda surprises me that no one has mentioned Tanelorn in this thread. Tanelorn was a creation of Michael Moorcock. It was a city which seemed to exist in many parallel planes at one time, and to which great heroes from just about any time or place could "retire." In effect, it was a transdimensional retirement community for heroes of legend. It shows up in a number of Moorcock's "Eternal Champion" cycle of stories. I know Elric was there for a while, and other Moorcock heroes/protagonists show there as well.
 

Random thought:

Domains for epic characters can exist . . . but they should resemble Asgard (either mythological or Marvel version; take your pick), Olympus, New Genesis, Apokalips, et al.

(I just can't see Epic-level Evil types coexisting with Goods and Neutrals indefinitely unless a) the location is of supreme value and b) there's some extremely powerful reason not to make a move.)

Matthew L. Martin
 

ColonelHardisson said:
It kinda surprises me that no one has mentioned Tanelorn in this thread. Tanelorn was a creation of Michael Moorcock. It was a city which seemed to exist in many parallel planes at one time, and to which great heroes from just about any time or place could "retire." In effect, it was a transdimensional retirement community for heroes of legend. It shows up in a number of Moorcock's "Eternal Champion" cycle of stories. I know Elric was there for a while, and other Moorcock heroes/protagonists show there as well.

Tanelorn appears in different forms on each plane, though. When Corum encountered it at the center of the Fifteen Planes he knew, it was virtually uninhabited. The ruined city at the end of time that Corum, Elric, and Erekose encountered together was said to be an aspect of Tanelorn. The Dragon in the Sword implies that London is also a version of Tanelorn, at least as far as John Daker is concerned. London might not be Tanelorn to anyone else, but for that particular version of the Eternal Champion it was the only Tanelorn he wanted or needed.

The Tanelorn that Rakhir the Red Archer and Elric defended is the best known aspect, but rather than a single city on every plane at once, it's more like an infinite succession of cities on every plane at once - the only constant is that it represents harmony between Law and Chaos, and allows weary champions some amount of solace and rest.

And epic characters are generally very rare even in Tanelorn, or the city wouldn't have needed Rakhir the Red Archer to defend it.
 
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Ripzerai said:
Tanelorn appears in different forms on each plane, though. When Corum encountered it at the center of the Fifteen Planes he knew, it was virtually uninhabited. The ruined city at the end of time that Corum, Elric, and Erekose encountered together was said to be an aspect of Tanelorn. The Dragon in the Sword implies that London is also a version of Tanelorn, at least as far as John Daker is concerned. London might not be Tanelorn to anyone else, but for that particular version of the Eternal Champion it was the only Tanelorn he wanted or needed.

The Tanelorn that Rakhir the Red Archer and Elric defended is the best known aspect, but rather than a single city on every plane at once, it's more like an infinite succession of cities on every plane at once - the only constant is that it represents harmony between Law and Chaos, and allows weary champions some amount of solace and rest.

And epic characters are generally very rare even in Tanelorn, or the city wouldn't have needed Rakhir the Red Archer to defend it.

As I said, I'm surprised that Tanelorn wasn't brought up earlier. It strikes me as more like an "epic city" than Union, in concept if not in relative power. Sure, there are probably an infinite number of Tanelorns on the various parallel planes, or at least "shadows" of some original Tanelorn somewhere (much as there were countless "shadows" of Amber, in Roger Zelazny's "Amber" novels). The trick is to determine the common denominators of these "hero's rest" cities, and come up with a baseline for each DM to alter to his taste.
 

The difference is that Tanelorn was designed by someone with talent. Union seems like it was designed by the twelve year old DM some of us once were.
 

The problem with Union is epic play is only convincing if you have a worthwhile story that needs that kind of power to tell, so whipping out a good city for epic play is very difficult. Waterdeep is a much better epic city in that sense.

Union is not so bad really, but blandness those epic city guards killed the setting as written. It'll take some carefull editing at the table to make it work. And never ever let the players read the setting as written ;)
 

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