D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[Mind of tempest]

Dexterity and Wisdom I'd have called the dominant stats. Well them and constitution. I'm more than happy to split-stat warlocks and sorcerers into a choice of Intelligence and Charisma. People dump Charisma; they almost never dump Wisdom or Dexterity.

Did you mean generic magic systems or genetic as in bloodline? Because sorcerers being about Bloodlines is a Pathfinder thing that has never been an explicit part of D&D and can stay out of D&D.

genetic magic system is a thing as spontaneous empowerment is barely a thing in even comic books
how is wisdom the dominant stat? are you playing 3e?

 

[CreamCloud0]

Eh, if you say so.

The barbarian can be a Fighter, in the same way that a "battle master" can be. Both will give you that 'unique mechanic' you mention, whether we're talking about Maneuvers or Rage. It really just boils down to how important you want/need that rage ability to be in your campaign.

Just spitballing here, but the Barbarian could be condensed into a Fighter subclass.

Spoiler: Barbarian Subclass

Maybe something like this?

At 3rd level: learn Rage, Unarmored Defense, and/or Danger Sense. (Player's choice?)​

At 7th level: learn Fast Movement and/or Feral Instinct​

At 10th level: learn Brutal Critical and/or Relentless Rage​

At 15th level: learn Persistent Rage​

You could give all of these features to the player at each level, or you could let the player choose their favorite from the list, it really just depends on what you're looking for.

This is just off the top of my head; it could use some polish but my point is, it can be done well if this is the sort of thing you are looking for.

A better option, in my opinion, would be to let a Fighter select the subclasses of other classes as archetypes:

Spoiler: Totem Warrior as a Fighter subclass

Like, say you roll up a Fighter and choose the Totem Warrior "Path" at 3rd level:

At 3rd level: gain the Rage ability in addition to Spirit Seeker.​

Done. All other subclass features of the Totem Warrior are applied normally thereafter.

Again, just sketching stuff out...needs polish but that's the gist of it.

I understand why people want dozens of classes and subclasses, I really do. And given the dozens (hundreds?) of subclasses available already, with more added every year, it's clearly the most popular opinion. But some of us would prefer a more modular, unified approach.

i'd love to see a more modular DnD with mix and match subclasses which let you dip other class's mechanics but i don't think 5e's the system for it, that feels like something that needs to be built into the class design from the ground up.

 

[Minigiant]

Eh, if you say so.

The barbarian can be a Fighter, in the same way that a "battle master" can be. Both will give you that 'unique mechanic' you mention, whether we're talking about Maneuvers or Rage. It really just boils down to how important you want/need that rage ability to be in your campaign.

Just spitballing here, but the Barbarian could be condensed into a Fighter subclass.

Spoiler: Barbarian Subclass

Maybe something like this?

At 3rd level: learn Rage, Unarmored Defense, and/or Danger Sense. (Player's choice?)​

At 7th level: learn Fast Movement and/or Feral Instinct​

At 10th level: learn Brutal Critical and/or Relentless Rage​

At 15th level: learn Persistent Rage​

You could give all of these features to the player at each level, or you could let the player choose their favorite from the list, it really just depends on what you're looking for.

This is just off the top of my head; it could use some polish but my point is, it can be done well if this is the sort of thing you are looking for.

A better option, in my opinion, would be to let a Fighter select the subclasses of other classes as archetypes:

Spoiler: Totem Warrior as a Fighter subclass

Like, say you roll up a Fighter and choose the Totem Warrior "Path" at 3rd level:

At 3rd level: gain the Rage ability in addition to Spirit Seeker.​

Done. All other subclass features of the Totem Warrior are applied normally thereafter.

Again, just sketching stuff out...needs polish but that's the gist of it.

I understand why people want dozens of classes and subclasses, I really do. And given the dozens (hundreds?) of subclasses available already, with more added every year, it's clearly the most popular opinion. But some of us would prefer a more modular, unified approach.

But like I said

Rage isn't any ability any version of the Fighter sans the 4e has anything to swap for.

You'd have to gut Fighter to fit the Barbarian in it.

And at that point... you've created another class without saying you did.

 

[CleverNickName]

i'd love to see a more modular DnD with mix and match subclasses which let you dip other class's mechanics but i don't think 5e's the system for it, that feels like something that needs to be built into the class design from the ground up.

It's clunky, for sure. It can be done in 5E, but it's a lot more effort than it should be/could have been.

 

[CleverNickName]

But like I said

Rage isn't any ability any version of the Fighter sans the 4e has anything to swap for.

I don't think you need to swap it for anything; you could just add it. It's a low-level class feature, probably less powerful than giving an extra feat (and between you and me? the Fighter class could use the boost.)

But I've had players who would abuse that sort of thing. So if you're wary of giving something-for-nothing, you could call Rage a new "fighting style" and make the player buy it at 1st level.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The amount of classes in 5e that prioritize Charisma, and the fact that those classes synergize quite well, is why Charisma is generally viewed as a dominant stat in 5e.

Three and a half - Bard, Sorcerer. Warlock. Some Paladins. Honestly strength is similar; barbarians, most fighters, most non-multiclassing paladins, some clerics. Wisdom? Druids, most clerics, and a few rangers. And almost no one dumps it.

I think Charisma dominance is a meme because in 2e it was the dump stat of choice with no class focusing on it and in 3.X the two that did were sorcerers (which were wannabe wizards in that edition)

Here is the core issue.

Each class is supposed to have a unique mechanic or unique combination of two or more mechanics.

Here is the core issue. Each class is also supposed to support subclasses, and each subclass is also supposed to have its own unique mechanic or combination that works with the primary class.

For example the barbarian is not a fighter.
The barbarian is the Rage class.
Barbarian is defined by Rage which is a Power up mode. It can be powered by raw arcane/divine/primal magic, ancestral or nature spirits, or their own mental instability.

The barbarian cannot go back into a fighter because The fighter does not have a class mechanic that is equal in importance as rage.

The Barbarian could go back into fighter easily enough; the Fighter has a clear and obvious space for an extra mechanic like Rage; the Barbarian would become the "rage" subclass of fighter. What the fighter would struggle to support are things like the Storm Herald Barbarian or Wild Magic Barbarian or Beast Barbarian where the subclass builds off and extends the core class mechanics.

And that's typically what creates a new class.

Nah. A simple new mechanic just creates a subclass these days. Far more efficient.

Incidentally this is what the sorcerer/wizard argument is about (especially as it's clear they have overlapping niches). The wizard has some strong class mechanics in the spellbook - but (other than the living spellbook) none of its subclasses really work with what the wizard is about. Worse than that "I can change my spells up" stands in conflict with "I am an illusion specialist".

Meanwhile the sorcerer's class mechanics, in metamagic, are weak but also serve to reinforce their magic specialism. If we were to make the Illusionist a sorcerer subclass their ability to tweak their illusions (from Illusionist 6) or even make them partially real (from illusionist 14) would be a perfect thematic fit with the sorcerer with their ability to tweak their spells by metamagic. Meanwhile the Wizard with their One Unique Mechanic of the Spellbook would be a perfect thing to build a sorcerer subclass round.

If you're trying to make a new character archetype and you cannot either

A) Make it within one of the existing class features
or
B) Swap out one class features for another while maintaining narrative or gameplay balance

You see this in the "cloistered cleric archetype"

5e only has one problem with the Cloistered Cleric - and that is that the Sorcerer base class is just bad because it doesn't know enough spells and the Divine Soul Sorcerer cruelly adds more stock to the shop while giving no extra slots to buy anything.

 

[Neonchameleon]

genetic magic system is a thing as spontaneous empowerment is barely a thing in even comic books
how is wisdom the dominant stat? are you playing 3e?

Wisdom - Druids, Clerics, Rangers. Also it's the Perception stat and the stat to protect against mind control. So almost no one ever dumps it. You see plenty of e.g. Cha 8 barbarians, but even Dexterity gets dumped more often than wisdom.

(And personally I'd either remove constitution from the game or roll it into one stat with strength).

 

[Neonchameleon]

I don't think you need to swap it for anything; you could just add it. It's a low-level class feature, probably less powerful than giving an extra feat (and between you and me? the Fighter class could use the boost.)

I can not agree at all here.

Fighters don't need a low level boost; they need to scale better. The Tier 1 fighter is strong. Rage on the other hand is really impressive at tier 1 because it halves all incoming physical damage. This lets barbarians feel like utter tanks at tier 1. On the other hand by tier 3 most of the damage that's incoming is magical/elemental and the rage damage reduction is a lot less useful.

 

[I'm A Banana]

the first part is just fighter, hell it is a fighter-only thing.

Nah, it's a Paladin thing, Paladins are much better at achieving this vibe than Fighters are, and have been since 1e. Fighters are kind of grandfathered into it, but because Fighters are a super generic class, they've never had robust class mechanics to support it. No oaths, no models of behavior, no reliance on Charisma or Wisdom.

Remember, I also proposed cutting Fighter. The generic is strong.

All you have to do to make Paladins suitable for every knight in shining armor out there is to maybe give them an alternative feature or three that makes them less obviously magical.

Though, again, this is more what I'd do if I had control and less what I think is smart for WotC to do. Not sure if they could get away with getting rid of Fighters. Or any class, really.

 

[Minigiant]

I don't think you need to swap it for anything; you could just add it. It's a low-level class feature, probably no more powerful than giving an extra feat (and between you and me? the Fighter class could use the boost.)

But I've had players who would abuse that sort of thing. So if you're wary of giving something-for-nothing, you could call Rage a new "fighting style" and make the player buy it at 1st level

In the current edition. Rage is more powerful that anything any subclass gives.