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D&D 5E What is the "role" in roleplaying

How do you primarily think of roleplaying

  • Playing a character who fulfils particular functions or responsibilities

    Votes: 25 25.5%
  • Playing a character who has a particular personality

    Votes: 73 74.5%

Even though my first exposure was through things like the gold box computer games and the Mentzer red box, I started seeing it as about personality and acting as soon as I started playing with actual human beings (and getting the 2e books didn't hurt).

Honestly, all arguments for this or that interpretation aside, I think this is a situation where we mostly derive our interpretation from our personal preference. My group like to act out our characters. I love a limited acting dungeon crawl or random arena style fight now and again, but most of the rest of the players would rather just not show up than show up and do that.

Or in other words, how we see it has a lot to do with our personalities and the role we want the game to play in our lives.
 

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Simulating a process of determination that operates in a manner that is not self-conscious by means of consciously choosing certain things is, in my view, a very dubious mode of simulation.

Life might sometimes imitate art, but art is not a simulation of life.
There's no other way to simulate a personality than through conscious choice, so that's what we do. It's not going to be perfect, but it is how it's done.
 

There's no other way to simulate a personality than through conscious choice, so that's what we do. It's not going to be perfect, but it is how it's done.
There are plenty of ways to simulate a personality other than through a conscious choice to cultivate and act out a particular personality.

Moldvay Basic simulates the bravery of NPCs and monsters by assigning moral scores.

Gygaxian AD&D simulates the loyalty of NPCs by assigning loyalty scores.

Thinking about some more modern games:

* 4e encourages STR paladins to be valiant by giving them the attack power Valiant Strike, which grants a bonus to hit equal to the number of adjacent enemies;

* Marvel Heroic RP helps make Nightcrawler be a romantic rogue by awarding XP to Nightcrawler's player for wooing and the like;

* Burning Wheel makes action resolution in key situations hard to succeed at without spending metagame resources, and those resources are earned by making choices that express various character traits (the PC-build rules for BW include multiple complex and sometimes overlapping systems for establishing character traits; and there are also rules for how these change over the course of play).​

The "modern" examples are why, quite a way upthread in reply to [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION], I said that I think those sorts of games fall more into the "function-oriented" than "cultivate a personality" style of RPing. A player who is playing Nightcrawler in MHRP, for instance, doesn't need to think "What sort of personality will Nightcrawler have?" Rather, upon reading the sheet and seeing that XP are earned for wooing, the player is already motivated to say (as happened in the first of my MHRP sessions involving Nighcrawler) "OK, we go out to a bar looking to pick up!"

In BW, which doesn't depend in the same way on pre-written character, the player has to make his/her own choices about character traits. But these aren't generally things like "Hates fish". They're things like "I will free my brother from possession by a balrog". When the GM then confronts the PC with the possessed brother (as happened in my BW session a month or so ago), the player doesn't think about cultivating a personality. The player thinks about how to free the brother from possession, and how to reconcile that with a promise made to another PC to help kill the brother. The player is engaging the game making conscious decisions about how to achieve PC goals and overcome obstacles to them (which the GM has deliberately placed there); not decisions about how to portray the PC's personality.

This passage from Christopher Kubasik's "interactive toolkit" essay seems apposite:

Characters drive the narrative of all stories. However, many people mistake character for characterization.

Characterization is the look of a character, the description of his voice, the quirks of habit. Characterization creates the concrete detail of a character through the use of sensory detail and exposition. By "seeing" how a character looks, how he picks up his wine glass, by knowing he has a love of fine tobacco, the character becomes concrete to our imagination, even while remaining nothing more than black ink upon a white page.

But a person thus described is not a character. A character must do.

Character is action. . . . [T]he best way to reveal your character is not through on an esoteric monologue about pipe and tobacco delivered by your character, but through your character's actions.

But what actions? Not every action is true to a character; it is not enough to haphazardly do things in the name of action. Instead, actions must grow from the roots of Goals. A characterization imbued with a Goal that leads to action is a character.​

Also this from Eero Tuovinen:

[O]nce the players have established concrete characters, situations and backstory in whatever manner a given game ascribes, the GM starts framing scenes for the player characters. Each scene is an interesting situation in relation to the premise of the setting or the character . . . The GM describes a situation that provokes choices on the part of the character. The player is ready for this, as he knows his character and the character’s needs, so he makes choices on the part of the character.​

In the "modern" games I've described, the process of PC building (or, in MHRP, PC selection) already establishes the character's goals and needs; so, when the GM confronts the player with a need to choose for his/her PC, the player doesn't have to consciously cultivate a personality. Rather, s/he has to make a choice about what the PC does, driven by his/her judgement of how the situation that is presented interacts with the resources s/he has ready-to-hand and the game's resolution system.

It's very different from what is described in the 2nd ed AD&D PHB.
 
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My group like to act out our characters. I love a limited acting dungeon crawl or random arena style fight now and again, but most of the rest of the players would rather just not show up than show up and do that.
I don't understand why posters keep making utterly unwarranted assumptions.

I am someone who does not conceive of "roleplaying" in terms of conceiving of, and then acting out, a particular personality ("My guy hates fish!" "My guy wears a green beret" etc - the sort of stuff talked about in the 2nd ed AD&D PHB).

Yet my games do not involve dungeon crawls or arena combats. (If you're curious what it does involve, I'm happy to provide links to many actual play threads on this board.) My games - in the past mostly AD&D and Rolemaster, at present 4e, Burning Wheel and Marvel Heroic RP - are mechanics-heavy games that rely on rich (but generally not secret) backstory and are run in a broadly scene-framing manner. (As discussed in this old thread.)
 

The interesting next question - if we have to force that statement into one of my two boxes, which one?

I'm going to push it towards the "function" box - if we're simulating life, we're simulating a process in which external circumstances and institutions make demands upon a person and thereby shape his/her choices.

This was probably intended as a somewhat innocuous statement, but I wanted to comment to clarify.

I think this would more fully encapsulate both life and RPGing if it entailed all the facets of locus of control and Nature + Nurture (rather than the IME absurd vs, as extracting one ingredient from the other becomes all but impossible once the cake has been baked). So I'd go with:

"if we're simulating life, we're simulating a process in which biology, evolutionary psychology, ideology, and external circumstances and institutions make (often competing) demands upon a person and thereby shape his/her choices."

Your favorite RPG (and its offshoots) probably does this better than all others if we're going by that definition.
 

I don't understand why posters keep making utterly unwarranted assumptions.

I am someone who does not conceive of "roleplaying" in terms of conceiving of, and then acting out, a particular personality ("My guy hates fish!" "My guy wears a green beret" etc - the sort of stuff talked about in the 2nd ed AD&D PHB).

Yet my games do not involve dungeon crawls or arena combats.

Interesting. I'm not sure I would personally enjoy a type of role-playing that wasn't predominantly acting out a persona. When I'm not doing that, I just like to problem-solve, dungeon delve, and smash hordes of mooks like bubble wrap.
 

Interesting. I'm not sure I would personally enjoy a type of role-playing that wasn't predominantly acting out a persona. When I'm not doing that, I just like to problem-solve, dungeon delve, and smash hordes of mooks like bubble wrap.
My aim, as a GM, is to have my games at least somewhat resemble REH's Conan, LotR and/or Claremont's X-Men. (Obviously this aim is rarely realised to its full extent!)

The characters face predominantly external challenges that they must overcome, but these challenges relate to, or express/reflect on, "inner" aspects of the PCs. So taking on the challenges forces the players (via their PCs) to take some sort of stand about something. (Often that is a cosmological "something" - eg who is appropriate to govern the cosmos? - but in my current BW game it is a bit more familial and intimate in relation to the PCs.)
 


Just for fun (and probably to create additional confusion), let me take a crack at how pemerton will reply. He will say that the bolded activities are role-playing. You are playing the role of problem-solver, dungeon delver and horde smasher (or possibly some more specialized role/function that contributes to those activities).

Did I get that right?
Well, you can see my reply!

I certainly think those things (problem-solving, dungeon delving, and smashing hordes of mooks) are roleplaying as that term was used by "wargamers" in the 70s/early 80s. They involve engaging the fiction of the game via an individual character.

But they typically don't involve (and in [MENTION=6677017]Sword of Spirit[/MENTION]'s case apparently never involve) developing and acting out a persona. So they're not roleplaying in that sense (which is probably the more typical contemporary usage among D&D players).

Smashing hordes of mooks isn't a big part of my D&D gaming, although it comes up from time-to-time. See eg here - a play report of a session where the fighter took on a dojo's worth of githzerai in order to prove a point.

What is significant to me, from the point of view of the thread topic, is that the fighter proving his point by defeating the githzerai isn't about the player, at the table, engaging in thespian-like moments of characterisation. Rather, it's about making a choice that expresses the PC's desires and self-conception, and then following through in mechanical terms. That's why, as between the two "boxes" I set up at the start of the thread, I put it in the "RP as function/capabilities" box rather than the "RP as acting out a unique personality" box.

Likewise for puzzle-solving: see eg here. The PCs had to decide what they wanted to do with the Raven Queen's body, and whether or not they wanted to stop her true name becoming known - and if so, how they planned to do that. The events in that session weren't driven by "personalities" but by the interaction (and sometimes conflict) between the PCs goals, which are located not just in the minds of their players but also are expressed by salient aspects of PC builds (eg paladin of the Raven Queen vs invoker who serves many gods, including the Raven Queen but also Vecna, vs a fighter-cleric of Moradin who has also become the god of pain and jailers; etc).
 

I guess I don't see a major distinction between what you're talking about and what I would call acting. If I'm putting myself in my character's shoes and doing what he would doing, then I'm acting in character, and sometimes that is going to involve the thespian moments and sometimes it's just going to involve deciding to run across the battlefield and strike at that hated enemy where the motivations never need to be stated--everyone can visualize the sort of expression on your character's face and you don't need to shout anything or spell it out.

What I was under the impression we were distinguishing between was that category (which is the same basic thing for me) and the sort of role that was formalized in 4e, like Striker or Defender.
 

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