Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[Asisreo]

thinking more on this, I am worried the high level Combat fighter will still struggle to compete with high level combat magic almost no matter what we do.

Could always give the extraordinarily tough monsters defenses against nearly all but 1 or 2 powerful spells needed in combination to incapacitate them.

Balors are one of the ones I look to often. They have teleportation and magic resistance. That's basically all a high-level monster needs outside of certain other saves and maybe immunity, resistances, etc.

People say the glaring weakness of the Balor is that it can be mazed, but a single Balor at high level is barely a hard encounter by level 17. Plus, it isn't horrible with intelligence. Having your one-of-a-kind 8th-level spell depleted to essentially buy time for something that may come back soon, it's not that bad.

Oh, and a player must first correctly guess the Balor doesn't have superhuman intelligence.

So more monsters like that would definitely help and I get to mention that the Balor is one of my favorite high-ish level monster.

 

[Garthanos]

thinking more on this, I am worried the high level Combat fighter will still struggle to compete with high level combat magic almost no matter what we do.

Not even combat????

 

[Chaosmancer]

Seems to me the only ways to interact with the world out of combat are:

1. Magic (including magical class features)
2. Followers
3. Skills / mundane class features
4. Metagame currency

We have pretty much ruled out everything. Therefore i propose to instead make the fighter be the the best at combat.

I'm not sure Metagame currency has been fully ruled out. I think that is a way to go. It isn't like we don't already have inspiration, piety, action points (eberron variant I believe?)

All of those could be expanded on or a new system could be added easily.

 

[Garthanos]

I'm not sure Metagame currency has been fully ruled out. I think that is a way to go. It isn't like we don't already have inspiration, piety, action points (eberron variant I believe?)

CS die

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm not sure Metagame currency has been fully ruled out. I think that is a way to go. It isn't like we don't already have inspiration, piety, action points (eberron variant I believe?)

All of those could be expanded on or a new system could be added easily.

Metagame currency that affects a die roll and is itself a fairly limited subsystem like inspiration won't get major complaints.
Metagame currency where you get to decide the NPC is persuaded by you is quite a bit different.
Metagame currency where you get to establish fiction about an NPC or world in general are generally no go for D&D.

It's the later types of it that always get significant pushback.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Metagame currency that affects a die roll and is itself a fairly limited subsystem like inspiration won't get major complaints.
Metagame currency where you get to decide the NPC is persuaded by you is quite a bit different.
Metagame currency where you get to establish fiction about an NPC or world in general are generally no go for D&D.

It's the later types of it that always get significant pushback.

But, what about something slightly different.

I liked the idea of the "Heroic Surges" being spent so that a successful persuasion led to the charmed condition, or an intimidating shout could be an opposed Intimidation roll versus the stunned condition. Perhaps you could even extend it to a few other situations for different skills.

This is "meta currency" but being used to essentially "succeed harder" at skills, giving the Fighter something they can contribute that is similar to spells. Maybe they all come online after spells, to let casters keep an edge, but it isn't a permanent edge, and eventually, a good enough martial can do things that seem impossible.

Maybe at level 20, you can make an athletics check to break a wall of Force. It is insane, but we are talking end game stuff.

 

[FrogReaver]

But, what about something slightly different.

I liked the idea of the "Heroic Surges" being spent so that a successful persuasion led to the charmed condition, or an intimidating shout could be an opposed Intimidation roll versus the stunned condition. Perhaps you could even extend it to a few other situations for different skills.

This is "meta currency" but being used to essentially "succeed harder" at skills, giving the Fighter something they can contribute that is similar to spells. Maybe they all come online after spells, to let casters keep an edge, but it isn't a permanent edge, and eventually, a good enough martial can do things that seem impossible.

Maybe at level 20, you can make an athletics check to break a wall of Force. It is insane, but we are talking end game stuff.

the charm example was discussed and was deemed magical.

the stunned by shouting condition wasn’t but it would fall under magical as well.

IMO what you are describing isn’t meta currency - it’s magic with a martial power source.

 

[Garthanos]

IMO what you are describing isn’t meta currency - it’s magic with a martial power source.

So the Battlemaster is using a fear spell? with a CS die

Compare the effect to intimidation... not the same at all.

 

[FrogReaver]

So the Battlemaster is using a fear spell? with a CS die

Compare the effect to intimidation... not the same at all.

you act as if that fear effect on Battlemaster hit is accepted no issue.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

That’s a fairly insubstantiated claim about LFQW.

• Removing the link between caster level and power from spell descriptions.
• Limiting high level spell slots to 1 per day.
• Concentration
• Restricting metamagic to sorcerer only in limited uses.
• Limits on summoned/risen creatures
• Revised spells like teleport
• Removal of permanency
• Legendary resistances

These things don’t address the LFQW problem?

They address it. They have not solved it.
Reducing is not removing.

Not so. For a few reasons. Firstly Bards get very limited spell choices... they can’t be good at everything. While the fighter gets more feats than the other classes. There are several ways a fighter character can get Minor image or friends - sun elf for instance, at very little cost to their fighting ability. Background also requires little cost to fighting ability.

The measure of contributing to exploration or roleplay is not to be ‘better than a bard’, it is to be able to meaningfully contribute. A bard player would be justifiably upset if a fighter was upstaging their role. The point I made is that a fighter character can influence people in the absence of a bard. My example was merely to suggest a first level fighter could be as good a face as a bard at first level - a point which I stand by.

I have no issue with you having that opinion. I'm just not sure how it is relevant to a discussion of specifically high levels.
Where the fighter has two extra feats.
And the bard has full 9-level progression spellcasting.

We can argue over whether x class is better at y. But if you fundamentally deny that a fighter character can achieve a reasonable results in the exploration and influencing pillars then Im not sure you’re playing the same game.

The fighter can achieve slightly worse results in the exploration pillar, and considerably worse results in the influencing pillar than a typical bard - as long as the bard doesn't actually start using their spells.
You can quibble over the definition of "reasonable results" all you want, when you start comparing what a high-level fighter can contribute to the party with what a high level bard can contribute, there tends to be a discrepancy.

the charm example was discussed and was deemed magical.

the stunned by shouting condition wasn’t but it would fall under magical as well.

Stunned creatures can't take actions or reactions, can't move, but can speak falteringly and don't defend themselves well.
Personally I can see being able to put someone in that state without requiring magic.

IMO what you are describing isn’t meta currency - it’s magic with a martial power source.

How are defining magic please?