What is this I don't even

[Mentat55]

Wait. Do you mean the PHB class rules are null and void? THey're no longer valid?

What do you mean rules don't apply to PHB classes?

I think he means that, since Essentials (but really since PHB3) classes no longer have to fit in the At-will/Encounter/Daily/Utility power model or the charts for number of powers and the levels at which they are acquired (as originally published in PHB1).

For example, some Essentials classes get progressive class abilities, others do not have daily powers, some classes get new class abilities at levels when other classes would get new choices for encounter or daily powers, etc. Again, as SteveC said, WotC was already experimenting with the psionic classes in PHB3 and the augment mechanic, but really blew apart the AEDU power structure completely in the Essentials products for some classes, particularly the martial classes.

 

[SteveC]

Wait. Do you mean the PHB class rules are null and void? THey're no longer valid?

What do you mean rules don't apply to PHB classes?

What I mean is that the general description of how classes work, and the master table in the PHB for character advancement (p. 29), does not necessarily apply to the Essentials classes. Characters get abilities in a unique manner based on their class, rather that saying "at level X, all classes have XYZ powers."

I think this will be cause for some confusion, since it confused you, and you're obviously not a newbie or anything. Does that make sense?

 

[Rechan]

Yes it makes sense - the new classes function and progress by their own rules, as opposed to a uniform progression.

What makes me chuckle is that in 1e/2e, every class worked differently (even leveled up from different xp amounts!). 3e unified that. 4e continued with that unification - until now.

 

[Colmarr]

3e unified that.

It did?

Unified xp per level and (almost-)unified feat progression hardly represents unification when everything else from BAB to spells learned to fighter bonus feats varies by class.

4e went further than 3e did, in that it really did unify class progression and class design.

PHB3 onwards is unwinding that step. For good or ill.

 

[Rechan]

It did?

Unified xp per level and (almost-)unified feat progression hardly represents unification when everything else from BAB to spells learned to fighter bonus feats varies by class.

I places that lacked unification were either a class's features (Fighter and Wizard's Bonus feats) that added on top of the framework or there were categories of unification.

By categories I mean that BAB had categories - the first, second, or third (Fighters/Barbs in the first, Rogues in the second, Wizards/Clerics in the third). Within that category, the BAB had a specific formula for how many levels you got a +1.

Same with saves, which generally operated under the same pretext of your good save(s) started at +2 and went up every x level, and your bad saves started at +O and went up every Y level. There were a few variations - some classes had 2 good saves, some classes had great saves all around, but the numbers Went Up at a predictable level based on whether it was a good or a bad save.

They didn't Unify everything, but at least put all classes into 3 categories on most of their stats, and those categories each had a set formula for BAB/Save/etc progression.

I think that's a far cry from Everybody's Different.

 

[Samir]

It's nice to see that the E-classes are consistent numbers. I was suspicious. For instance the Warlock's boon only working on targets adjacent that die/or that the warlock kills. So it's not going to trigger as often as a cursed target dieing regardless of who slays it. The Warlock only doing 2+ damage - that's on the low end vs. 1d6.

Just for clarity, the Hexblade gets +ability mod damage at 1st level, 2+mod at 5th, 4+mod at 15th, and 6+mod at 25th. That beats a Warlock's d6s, and keeps pace with them if they're upgraded to d8s via a feat.

 

[On Puget Sound]

It's important to note that most E-classes CAN be customized to some extent. When you choose a power, you may choose it from any source as long as it is the same class, level and type. The E-classes are subclasses, so when your knight reaches second level he can take any "fighter utility level 2" power, whether from the knight list, the slayer list, or something out of the PHB or Martial Power (or, in the case of utility powers, skill powers).

 

[Nahat Anoj]

4e went further than 3e did, in that it really did unify class progression and class design.

PHB3 onwards is unwinding that step. For good or ill.

Yeah, that's how I see it.

Although, I think the expected daily damage output (assuming 4 combat encounters per day) for post-PH3 characters is still roughly the same as pre-PH3 characters, so in that sense everything is still pretty unified. Every class in a certain role ends up at the same place, but, post-PH3, they all get there in different ways.

 

[wayne62682]

Coming back to the game, what sits "odd" with me is the way the divide (between Essentials classes and pre-Essentials classes) feels. For instance, I have a character concept I'm working on and the Essentials class doesn't quite fit (rather, the concept doesn't quite fit the narrow definition of the Essentials class), but using the older stuff still kind of feels like using "obsolete" rules (even though it's not - kind of hard to explain) because the Essentials style is the new style moving forward.

What I would honestly like to see, and I'm probably going to be lynched for saying it, is for the Essentials builds (or whatever the technical term is for them now) to be expanded to the extent that the old 2E Kits (yes, I said Kits) were, in that you could really customize the fine-grained details of your character (of course they'd have to be better balanced than some of the kits were... looking at you, Cavalier Kit). If Essentials really is the way they plan on going, then I want to see these builds become the new "class". They shouldn't ever add a new class unless it's for something entirely new (e.g. new power source, brand new mechanics - for instance if they decided to bring back Incarnum to 4e); everything else should be an Essentials-type build for an existing class. I would even go so far as to say I wouldn't mind the return of the "Complete X Handbook" books, full of RP tips and extra builds for a particular class. Not being in publishing I have no idea if that would sell or not (probably not, limited audience and all that) but that's what I would like to see

Right now the issue is the E-line isn't defined enough to accommodate varied concepts; that's not a big deal since you can just build a pre-E character, but down the road I'm sure the intent will be that the old books will be obsoleted, so the E-class style needs to expand to allow for various concepts, not a basic one or two and that's all.

 

[mneme]

but using the older stuff still kind of feels like using "obsolete" rules (even though it's not - kind of hard to explain) because the Essentials style is the new style moving forward.

It isn't. They are still making new AEUD classes, and have reprinted the Weaponmaster Fighter and intend to re-release the other classic builds in the Class Compendium series.

If Essentials really is the way they plan on going, then I want to see these builds become the new "class". They shouldn't ever add a new class unless it's for something entirely new (e.g. new power source, brand new mechanics - for instance if they decided to bring back Incarnum to 4e); everything else should be an Essentials-type build for an existing class.

That's basically what they're doing. It's really a format thing, though, since an Arcanist is just as much of an "essentials style build" as a Mage.

concepts; that's not a big deal since you can just build a pre-E character, but down the road I'm sure the intent will be that the old books will be obsoleted, so the E-class style needs to expand to allow for various concepts, not a basic one or two and that's all.

Er...class compendium? They're keeping Weaponmaster, Templar, Arcanist, around (and, one expects, the other ADEU builds). And they made a new ADEU build of a class that had previously gotten an Essentials style treatment: the Binder.