What is this I don't even

[Obryn]

The Binder is a new build of the Warlock that's presented in Heroes of Shadow. It's a controller rather than a striker. It has the at-will/encounter/daily/utility structure natively,

Yeah. Disappointingly, the Binder kinda sucks.

You give up Curse, and get ... well, basically nothing.

You're way better off playing a regular Warlock. You'll have every bit as much control, and do more damage, too.

-O

 

[mneme]

Obryn: To be fair, binders do get more controllery at wills, which are not accessible to curse-based warlocks. Beyond that, their +1 to hit feature is probably easier to get than Prime Shot (and more flavorful). I think the biggest advantage they have is the Gloom Pact multiattack at will.

Also, my point is that it's far from "once Essentials, always essentials." This is shown by the Warlock, who got an "essentials style" writeup in Heroes of Forgotten Kingdoms, then a ADEU subclass, the Binder, in Heroes of Shadow. It's not at -all- that Wizards has decided that the "old way" of doing things obselete; instead, they're providing an easy mode for players who don't want to deal with as much complexity (and supporting it) while continuing to scale back support for the more complex approach.

Also, regarding the Blackguard, it looks to me as if his source of extra damage is kinda complex. Well, sort of:

+Chr damage with combat advantage
(vice) +Chr additional damage (but you have to take that damage)
(fury) +2 additional damage with combat advantage, or +4 when bloodied

What's odd is that unlike other classes with a stat-scaling damage bonus, it doesn't get a scaling bonus to the stat (eg, +2/+4/+6); it seems like they're expected to make up the difference using their Vice extra damage.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Obryn: To be fair, binders do get more controllery at wills, which are not accessible to curse-based warlocks. Beyond that, their +1 to hit feature is probably easier to get than Prime Shot (and more flavorful). I think the biggest advantage they have is the Gloom Pact multiattack at will.

The benefits for the binder are at-wills that are more useful for controllers, a boon (if it goes off) that is a bit more useful for control than the normal pact boons, and they do get the rider effects on the encounter powers. An old version warlock was already leading towards control, and they could easily grab the controllery encounter/dailies/utilities (and even grab one of the at-wills if it's human or hybrid). The +1 to hit is more helpful, it doesn't put you in danger, and the general theme of the warlock's control (tying up opponent's by sliding, slowing, immobilizing and putting them in zones that they can't see out of or get hurt if they leave, etc) would be hurt if you put yourself close enough to the targets for prime shot.

Also, regarding the Blackguard, it looks to me as if his source of extra damage is kinda complex. Well, sort of:

+Chr damage with combat advantage
(vice) +Chr additional damage (but you have to take that damage)
(fury) +2 additional damage with combat advantage, or +4 when bloodied

What's odd is that unlike other classes with a stat-scaling damage bonus, it doesn't get a scaling bonus to the stat (eg, +2/+4/+6); it seems like they're expected to make up the difference using their Vice extra damage.

The striker damage is basically a combination of the two sources ... the fury benefiting more from multiple attacks, while the domination one is only 1/turn (round? I left the book in the car) ... then again the thp also limits how often you'd be able to do it anyway.

As for concealment referenced earlier ... I'm not sure what that was about. They may have grabbed some skill powers to allow for hiding in the concealment to grab combat advantage. It would seem that concealment would be something that would give you c/a, but of all the various gain c/a feats, concealment only works for ranged attacks.

 

[ppaladin123]

In giving up the curse, binders lose out on the flitting shadows feat that lets you sacrifice curse damage die to teleport the enemy you hit (up to 3 squares). That adds a ton of control to every hit.

You also don't get the joy of misty step + improved misty step + shared boon + bloodied boon. That lets you rearrange your allies to your liking fairly regularly throughout the encounter.

 

[Obryn]

The benefits for the binder are at-wills that are more useful for controllers,

I'll grant that, but...

a boon (if it goes off) that is a bit more useful for control than the normal pact boons,

But it only goes off in two circumstances: (1) Something dies next to you. (2) You kill something. Neither of these are particularly desirable and/or likely for a ranged controller. Far better to use a Warlock's curse mechanic and trigger your pact at range.

and they do get the rider effects on the encounter powers.

"A pittance of extra damage when something happens" isn't exactly groundbreaking, IMO, especially with how tepid these Encounter powers tend to be. I mean, there are a few AoEs (mostly for Star pact) and a few Blindness effects (more for Gloom), but all of these are readily poachable by Warlocks. The Binder riders are rather meek, generally.

Now, if there were some more potent status effects in them, we'd be talking. As it stands, I don't think the Binder encounter powers are much more controller-y than the Warlock's.

An old version warlock was already leading towards control, and they could easily grab the controllery encounter/dailies/utilities (and even grab one of the at-wills if it's human or hybrid).

Righto. But this is not a reason to play a Binder - it's a reason to play a Warlock.

The +1 to hit is more helpful, it doesn't put you in danger, and the general theme of the warlock's control (tying up opponent's by sliding, slowing, immobilizing and putting them in zones that they can't see out of or get hurt if they leave, etc) would be hurt if you put yourself close enough to the targets for prime shot.

OTOH, the Binder's bonus is largely outside your control. With Prime Shot, you are in the driver's seat on whether or not to get that bonus. (It also has some wicked feat support, fwiw.)

Overall, even in an Essentials-only game where HoS is also allowed, I don't know that the Binder is a good pick. You're way better off with a Hexblade (who has pretty good control, actually) or a Mage (who rules control).

-O

 

[Rechan]

I flipped through the Essentials books and honestly I was really surprised and impressed with the designs. Particularly the Ranger (Hunters are Martial/Primal controller!?). I also dug the Warpriest - the domain design is part and parcel how I imagined clerics would function.

I would very much enjoy seeing more Essential designs. While I still like the PHB classes, these are really smooth.

This makes class design look even easier to do. Man there are some class designs I want to see now (because making them is pointless cuz I can't really play them), like a ranged-magic Divine striker.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Alright I managed to get my hands on Heroes of the Forgotten Lands and I'm still sort of scratching my head.

I'm looking at the Cavalier, for instance. All that he gets are 2 At Wills (one based on one of two builds), two Encounter powers (which are class features that are free/reaction powers), dailies, and daily utility powers.

So... Alright, I understand that Essentials characters are supposed to have less stuff "doing", more 3e-style "I use basic attack".

But how on earth are these balanced with regular stuff? I mean, I would assume that if they're doing the same At-Wills all the time (with the occasional Daily tossed in), then their At-wills are going to be rather powerful. The Cavalier of Valor's At Wills are the same as a PHB1's At Wills. But the PHB1 Paladin is stronger - he gets the same at-Wills as well as all the other stuff.

These Essentials guys look declawed, in terms of balance. They just look weak all around. Sure they're losing flexibility of Stuff to Do and Stuff to Choose From... but what are you gaining by giving that flexibility and options up? It just looks like a Regular character that chooses to just use Atwills and Dailies.

Where's the payoff (or balancing factor), mechanically?

The Essential classes get additional, typically more "passive" features that give them some of their missing power back. The Essential Fighter for example gains damage buffs that are always on.

Since all classes still have surges as a daily resource (no infinite healing from wands of cure light wounds), this overall means that the essential fighter spreads out his damage potential, while daily power using fighter would focus it on specific encounters - but they both have to make due over the same time with their healing surges.

 

[Obryn]

I flipped through the Essentials books and honestly I was really surprised and impressed with the designs.

Ditto. Some of them are classes I'd have no interest in playing, but I think they're elegant and simple enough that a newbie could even jump into a Paragon-tier game without being completely lost.

This makes class design look even easier to do. Man there are some class designs I want to see now (because making them is pointless cuz I can't really play them), like a ranged-magic Divine striker.

Yeah, I think that's at least part of the reason for it. I mean, compare how much dev time needed to be spent making the Vampire with how much would need to be spent on another class like the Battlemind.

-O

 

[Jhaelen]

Yeah, I think that's at least part of the reason for it. I mean, compare how much dev time needed to be spent making the Vampire with how much would need to be spent on another class like the Battlemind.

Do you think creating the vampire took less time than creating the Dark Sun Battlemind build? I seriously doubt it!

Since the vampire class includes a lot of non-standard stuff (healing surges, etc.), it will have required a lot more playtesting and probably several additional trips from development to design and vice versa.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It's important to note that most E-classes CAN be customized to some extent. When you choose a power, you may choose it from any source as long as it is the same class, level and type.

Some Essentials Classes (Warpriest, Mage) can quite easily swap any power they get that way (like any other 4e build). Most can do so to a lesser extent, and a few (Knight, Slayer, Theif) can only swap utilities, or face a feat tax for swapping (almost like multiclassing). It creates a spectrum of privilege, really. The more compatible classes can draw upon a great deal more past material than the less compatible ones. A Mage can use any wizard power. A Warpriest, any WIS-based or statless Cleric power (STR not being a useful stat for the warpriest). A Paladin or Walrock can swap out some some attack powers. A Knight, Rogue or Slayer can swap utilities with it's parent class, or pay a feat 'tax' to swap /one/ encounter power.