What is this I don't even

[Aegeri]

Do you think creating the vampire took less time than creating the Dark Sun Battlemind build? I seriously doubt it!

I doubt that as well, but that isn't what he said in the least. He was saying the battlemind as a whole class I believe, not just a single build. The battlemind would have taken a lot more effort to build than the vampire, which other than its core mechanic wouldn't have taken anywhere near as much effort. The entire class is entirely on rails for 30 levels after all - compared to the battlemind especially, which has several options of at-will powers that have 2 augments each.

it will have required a lot more playtesting and probably several additional trips from development to design and vice versa.

I honestly do wonder about Wizards "playtesting" at times myself actually.

 

[Jhaelen]

I doubt that as well, but that isn't what he said in the least. He was saying the battlemind as a whole class I believe, not just a single build.

Okay, but that wouldn't be a fair comparison since the vampire class is basically just a single build with a couple of swap-out powers (okay, let's be generous and call it 1.5 builds ). Hence comparing it to a single 'classic' build is more fitting.

 

[Obryn]

I doubt that as well, but that isn't what he said in the least. He was saying the battlemind as a whole class I believe, not just a single build.

Yup.

Okay, but that wouldn't be a fair comparison since the vampire class is basically just a single build with a couple of swap-out powers (okay, let's be generous and call it 1.5 builds ). Hence comparing it to a single 'classic' build is more fitting.

But that's not the point I'm making. The vampire carves out a distinctive play niche in a way that only a new class, rather than a new build of an AEDU class, can make. So yeah, it's on rails - but it's an entire class, which is precisely why the comparison - to a Battlemind or a Seeker - is appropriate.

Nobody's doubting that it took as much time as an AEDU build, or probably a little more. But regardless, it's not a rogue, monk, wizard, or anything else - if you want to be Vampire-ish, it's the only game in town.

-O

 

[Jhaelen]

But that's not the point I'm making. The vampire carves out a distinctive play niche in a way that only a new class, rather than a new build of an AEDU class, can make. So yeah, it's on rails - but it's an entire class, which is precisely why the comparison - to a Battlemind or a Seeker - is appropriate.

So, your point is ...?
Is it that you think we'll see more new, unique classes because they abandoned the AEDU structure, thus saving development time?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Some of the Essentials sub-classes were clearly very easy to design. Designing another sub-class like the Slayer, for instance, could likely be done in an afternoon, for instance. Actually, nevermind 'likely,' I did knock off a fighter sub-class like that in a matter of a few hours once.

4e classes were great in a lot of ways, but they were devilishly hard to create from scratch. I spent months working on a custom martial-controller class, for instance, and never was able to brainstorm up an adequate number of powers, let along get them all sorted into levels and balanced. A very substantial undertaking.

Essentials classes are just a lot ... less.

Nobody's doubting that it took as much time as an AEDU build, or probably a little more. But regardless, it's not a rogue, monk, wizard, or anything else - if you want to be Vampire-ish, it's the only game in town.

I'm doubting it. An AEDU class with 1 power at each decision point instead of the usual 4-6? Much less than 1/4 the design work.

The Vampire is mechanically abberant enough in other ways that it would have needed a lot of playtest time, though, I'll agree there. Though I wouldn't assume that it /got/ that playtest time...

 

[WalterKovacs]

I'm doubting it. An AEDU class with 1 power at each decision point instead of the usual 4-6? Much less than 1/4 the design work.

I definitely agree here. With most classes, you need to factor in combinations. "What if they take power A, power B, multiclass to grab power C, etc ..." The vampire's narrow focus (not just it's lack of options, but it's striker feature being limited to vampire powers) means they only really needed to playtest two builds. There may be a useful alternate paragon path out there (likely ones where the encounter/daily use an at-will power as part of their attack ... or something like the human paragon path that can let you get another copy of the vampire's attacking encounter power) but really, they can much better predict what a vampire will look like at various levels. Other classes would need to (presumably) be tested with various combinations of optional elements. With most of the essential classes having their choices being either a single 'big' choice (all the encounter powers and at-wills) or from a limited pool (the choice of fighter stances, which you get most of them by the time you are high enough level, meaning you can expect that most will see play, etc) or aren't likely to show up as often (utilities are slightly less likely to influence an encounter as an attack, and a daily by it's nature can only influence one fight per day). So, basically, by limiting the number of different combinations of at-will/encounter powers ... they can better figure out how Essential classes will play, since at level X, they at least know what the at-will/encounter situation should look like. Even the mage, that has all it's options open, can at least go off the expectation of building based on the school, which, apart from fire/illusion, only has 2 at-wills and 1 encounter and daily with that keyword at any given level, and thus would be able to predict how the school class features would interact at least.

 

[DracoSuave]

Dont forget most of the time your using vengeance strike for +2 damage per adjacent enemy. As well you have a lot of access to thp when you want it. I took Disciple of Stone to keep thp coming and amulet of false life as my neck. Race was Vryloka. By lvl2 thats 3 encounter powers that give you thp. And thp=dmg. You have defender hp and plate armor. You can afford the damage. Just look for powers that give thp. Every one of those is a damage boost.

 

[Obryn]

I'm doubting it. An AEDU class with 1 power at each decision point instead of the usual 4-6? Much less than 1/4 the design work

That would be why I said build, not class.

So, your point is ...?
Is it that you think we'll see more new, unique classes because they abandoned the AEDU structure, thus saving development time?

I think it's a possibility. Making a class like the Vampire - or heck, like the Binder - is easier than making an entire new class with 4 options every level.

(I just hope they're better than the Binder. I think the vampire gets a bad rap - they get some neat features - but the binder has nothing to recommend itself over a regular Warlock.)

-O

 

[Tony Vargas]

Originally Posted by Tony Vargas
I'm doubting it. An AEDU class with 1 power at each decision point instead of the usual 4-6? Much less than 1/4 the design work

That would be why I said build, not class.The Vampire is a class.

But, fine: A build has no choices at all would require much less than half the design work than a build that adds a choice or two at each decision point to a class that already has the usual 4 or so choices.

One of the few virtues of Essentials is that it makes the work of the designers much easier, meaning they can keep producing /something/ in the face of limitted resource.

 

[DracoSuave]

No a warpriest, cavalier, blackguard! hexblade, binder or, executioner does not have freedom to choose any power from their parent class. Domain, pact, virtue, and vice powers are not choices.

The only time you get a choice is when it says you do. For warpriests thats their dailies. Other class types have further restrictions. A hexblade gets summon planar ally whether he wants it or not.

The only way to circumvent it outside cc feats is skill, shade, vryloka powers.