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What is *worldbuilding* for?

darkbard

Legend
And if Tolkien had been writing in Story Now, he would not only have survived, but only been down maybe a healing surge. After all, their goal was to get to Mordor, so the journey was of no interest to the players. They should have left Rivendell and shown up at Mordor in the next scene.

This is patently untrue. In LotR, the travel route is of high importance to the characters. The RPG equivalent would be the route of travel being of high importance to the players, and thus it would take a central role in a Story Now approach. But in the hypothetical example, the players indicate that the travel route is not the concern, the destination is, and so play transitions to that stated focus.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
This is patently untrue. In LotR, the travel route is of high importance to the characters. The RPG equivalent would be the route of travel being of high importance to the players, and thus it would take a central role in a Story Now approach. But in the hypothetical example, the players indicate that the travel route is not the concern, the destination is, and so play transitions to that stated focus.

The travel route was only important in LotR, because Tolkien didn't fast forward it, playing a standard D&D game instead of fast forwarding like Story Now. They actually had to walk and plan their way through obstacles that @pemerton says are unimportant in his example. The thing of high importance was getting the ring to Mt. Doom in Mordor. Secondarily, it was important that Aragorn become king. That's it. Nobody sat the council at Rivendell and said, "It's important to me that we see Moria on the way to Mt. Doom", or "Hey, one of my goals is to see Lothlorien." You're making up importance to characters that wasn't there.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
This is not what Eero Tuovinen means by the term.
Foremost, thank you for drawing Tuovinen's blog to my attention :) Something jarred here and maybe I didn't understand it. In summarising player advocacy, he writes

Tuovinen said:
This means that the player tells the others what his character does
If I tell others what a character I am advocating for does don't I therefore have control of that character?
 

darkbard

Legend
You're making up importance to characters that wasn't there.

No, I'm trying to extrapolate from the rather imperfect example of comparing across genres. But such a venture is likely pointless, for LotR is a work of fiction authored by a single person, not an RPG played by a group of people with various goals and desiderata for their PCs and game play.

What you consistently seem to miss, or ignore, or whatever in this branch of the discussion, no matter how many times [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] or [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] explain it to you, is that if the players in a game express their goals by declaring actions for their PCs, it reduces player agency for the GM to intervene other material of interest to the GM only in place of engaging the stated goals. Essentially, by the players not declaring that they approach stealthily, search for hidden altars along the route, etc. they are indicating such things are not of interest to them at this moment of play. You may not enjoy this mode of play, but your insistence that such players *must* be presented with obstacles, etc. to their expressed action declarations in the interest of their own agency is, as already noted, illogical and silly.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
What you consistently seem to miss, or ignore, or whatever in this branch of the discussion, no matter how many times [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] or [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] explain it to you, is that if the players in a game express their goals by declaring actions for their PCs, it reduces player agency for the GM to intervene other material of interest to the GM only in place of engaging the stated goals.

[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] admitted to doing exactly that a few pages ago. He said he brought up things that were not yet of interest to the players. If they aren't of interest to the players yet, they aren't a stated goal that he is engaging. Either those things were of interest to the DM only, or he was doing what I do and coming up with things that he thought they might become interested in, which would be a plot hook that he says he doesn't do.

Essentially, by the players not declaring that they approach stealthily, search for hidden altars along the route, etc. they are indicating such things are not of interest to them at this moment of play. You may not enjoy this mode of play, but your insistence that such players *must* be presented with obstacles, etc. to their expressed action declarations in the interest of their own agency is, as already noted, illogical and silly.
Or they didn't think of it. I find the assumption that Story Now players are perfect and never overlook anything to be amusing. I find the idea that if I am playing Story Now, I have to plot out possible things that might happen at the end of the trip so that I can see if I need to tell the DM before my character leaves what I want to do, to be disheartening. I don't like having to play a mental game of chess with the DM, plotting out my moves well in advance. And I find the constant twisting of my words in this thread into things that I didn't say or mean to be annoying. Nothing I've said represents an obstacle to the declarations of the players.
 

darkbard

Legend
[MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], it has become clear to me over weeks of your posting to this thread that you are not really interested in honest analysis but rather staunchly adhering to your set perspectives, logic and evidence to the contrary be damned. If that floats your boat, go for it. But I don't see the point in engaging further...
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
[MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], it has become clear to me over weeks of your posting to this thread that you are not really interested in honest analysis but rather staunchly adhering to your set perspectives, logic and evidence to the contrary be damned. If that floats your boat, go for it. But I don't see the point in engaging further...

Then you haven't been paying attention. I haven't been arguing that mine is right and/or others are wrong. I've been saying that the two styles are very similar except for motivations. Story Now involves most of the techniques that we use. [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] has steadily shown through example that he uses many the things he has been saying is railroading or choose your own adventure when he talks about our style. It's just apparently okay when he does it. Analysis fails when one side is only analyzing the other, pointing it out as negative, and failing to see that it engages in much of the same activity.
 

tomBitonti

Adventurer
The risk with making stuff like this up on the fly is that you'll make something up that's geologically or geographically implausible or impossible and not realize it until it's too late, by which time you're stuck with it because it's affected play somehow. If you at least map out your world (or at least the bits of it most likely to see play) ahead of time you can find and fix these errors before they get baked in...or intentionally bake in some implausibilities as you've had the time to come up with good in-game rationales for them (e.g. the 3000-mile-long mile-high cliff in my game world called the Godswall - geologically ridiculous but I've a good in-game reason for its being there which I won't post here as none of my players know what that reason is yet)

Also, having a basic map of things that would be known to the PCs allows the players to make informed decisions as you can simply plop the map down in front of them and they can use it just like I use an atlas to plan a road trip. We've got two weeks to kill while the wizard trains up? OK - it's 6 days walk to Karnos (port town) then probably another week at sea to get to Spieadeia (big city) - nope, we can't get there and back in time; shopping will have to wait.

I know I as player have looked at a DM's player-side map and wondered what a particular place was all about, even though I'd never had a PC anywhere near it.

Lanefan

Much of the discussion has stayed away from this sort of practical question.

I've found that WorldBuilding is necessary when I GM so that I can present options to the players in a coherent, consistent fashion. I find that the more that I make up on the spot, the harder it is to stay consistent, especially if players have repeat encounters with a location or creature.

Putting in a rough timeline in which the players are operations enables the placement events and encounters around the players chosen activities so to increase the sense of being immersed in a real world.

Neither of these purposes is there to take away player agency, in any serious fashion. If anything, they provide a framework from which players can base their actions.

Thx!
TomB
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
For me, the bigger picture is the idea that every situation has to have a "lead up", a "telegraphing",
Not every situation. If the party had been surprised by some giants appearing a few miles before they'd normally have been expected then sure, no lead-up required. But in the situation as presented the PCs had every reason to suspect there'd be giants ahead, and as written there's no indication given as to whether either side gained surprise (or system equivalent).

where instead of getting into it the GM putzes around giving the players the chance to putz around some more. Let's just get on with it!
Patience, Iago. Patience. :) We don't have to play through it all tonight...there's always next session...

But Gandalf walked through a lot of Moria without dying, or even getting hurt!
Sure he did. Still doesn't mean he made it to Lothlorien, even though (going by Galadhriel's reaction) he was expected to.

If the players want to fight giants, I'm happy to leave the risk of Gandalf-death to that point.
If the players want to fight giants and there's risks or dangers or hazards between where they are and where the giants are, I want to see what effects those risks-dangers-hazards might have on the party so that both I and the players know what they have left (and-or maybe what they've gained!) by the time they reach the giants.

Lanefan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Iin a game about travelling through a wilderness, shoes might matter more than wealth.

And wealth can be "tracked" without a mechanic. I can just write down that someone is rich, or poor - much as I write down that they are young or old, tall or short, amusing or boring, clean-living or a drunkard.
How rich? If hiring a couple of porters to carry my heavy stuff through the jungle is going to cost me 2 g.p. per day per porter, I'd like to be able to just look at my character sheet, see I've got 105 g.p. right now, and know I can confidently hire these guys for 20 days (80 g.p.) and still have a bit left over. (and next I'll be on to the DM for some geography in order that I can - using maps and local knowledge/lore - make a reasonable estimate of how long this trip is gonna take and whether paying my hirelings is going to run me out of money before we even get to the adventure)

Or how poor? Can I afford to buy a spare set of good shoes at 3 g.p. or am I restricted to the cheap ones at 12 s.p. that'll wear out faster?

In Cortex+ Heroic, if a player wants a piece of gear for his/her PC s/he can spend a plot point to create a resource (eg the player of the swordthane can spend a point to gain a riding resource, typically a horse). Assets can be created. Etc. The game doesn't use equipment lists. It simply isn't about gear in the D&D sense.
Again, absolutely unrealistic.

The more you tell me about this game the more it seems like the game completely turns its back on any sort of realism, or resource management, or small-scale grittiness. Yes I know it has "Heroic" in its name and that alone should red-flag me as to what to expect but come on, man: even heroes have to pay for food and count their arrows.

I sure hope these resources can only be created when it makes sense they be available e.g. if you can create a horse while on a ship at sea that's right over the top.

And what happens if while deep in a dungeon somewhere it suddenly becomes extremely important whether or not someone has some particular piece of mundane gear e.g. iron spikes to wedge a door shut? They can't be allowed to 'create' them there and then; they either had some all along or they didn't, and if they did they'd be noted somewhere and if they didn't then they're out of luck. Otherwise it'd be like these plot points are almost like little tiny Wishes - bleah.

Let's put to one side that D&D actually has no mechanics for the dropping of swords overboard, or the soaking of spellbooks.
Depending on system or houserules either of these could be a fumble result; and the spellbook mishap could also be a result of a failed item save: Halfred, this isn't your day: a tentacle sweeps your backpack overboard! The backpack gets a save each round to see how long it can keep the water out, but after that fails anything in it that could be damaged by water will need to make its own save.
There is no reason inherent in RPGing why a random encounter with a sea monster should matter more than a random encounter with a striking individual. THat's a purely wargaming instinct.
If the random encounter with a striking individual has the potential to make significant changes to the party e.g. someone might get charmed out of the group, or killed, or said striking individual might end up joining the party, I'll run it longhand. But a friendly gate guard (the original example) most of the time doesn't count as "striking". :)

The thing is, stuff like your cliff can be made up as needed. Stories of magical geology can be made up as needed. Your Godswall doesn't become more ridiculous, or less, because it is authored at time X rather than time Y. And it doesn't become more exciting as an element of the fiction because a reason has already been made up by the GM. It might be exciting even if no one has authored a reason yet!
You've either ignored or missed my point. Sure things like this could be made up on the fly, but doing so gives no opportunity to think it through ahead of time and work out the possible consequences (both in and out of fiction) and-or rationales.

Putting the Godswall where it is makes east-going non-magical travel extremely difficult. If anyone at the table (including me as DM) has any reason for the party to go east or for anything to have been coming from the east that trip just became a lot more challenging. I've also just munged up the climate and weather patterns over about a quarter of a continent, retroactive through every minute of the PCs' played careers. Guys, remember that days-long rainstorm and flood you hit while you were out chasing down the Kapoor Crystal last year? Yeah, well that massive cliff I threw in last week means there's no possible way that rainstorm could have happened as putting the Godswall where it is means - now I've worked out the climate patterns - it simply can't rain there that much. Ever. No. Just no.

And if I don't catch this sort of thing, chances are a player will; which would in this example probably lead to either a demand for a retcon of the Kapoor Crystal adventure (or at least of the flood part if said flood had any lasting effects) or - more likely - an unspoken invalidation of that adventure and maybe of the whole campaign.

This stuff has to be got right the first time. Making it up on the fly might work out once in a while if you get lucky with it but in the long run is just asking for disaster.

Lan-"regarding the Godswall retroactively changing the weather during the Kapoor expedition, before anyone even thinks of suggesting I should just gloss it all over and hope nobody notices: forget it. I'll have noticed, and I'm not the kind of DM to bury a mistake like that"-efan
 
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