What is *worldbuilding* for?

[Aldarc]

No one takes issue with his conceptualizing player agency in that way. It is when he tries to deconsruct other peoples' notions of player character freedom (essentially arguing they are not truly free). There is a play style battle going on underneath all these arguments.

Yes, which is why I am puzzled by why this accusation is lobbed only against Pemerton. I am always amused that by the underlying presumption that this is a Pemerton-only problem and that his debators do not engage in similar tactics.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Yes, which is why I am puzzled by why this accusation is lobbed only against Pemerton. I am always amused that by the underlying presumption that this is a Pemerton-only problem and that his debators do not engage in similar tactics.

I am just commenting on what I saw. But I said from the start, this is a very common tactic. I think the reason Pemerton gets it so much is because he is effective at it (and posts a lot). But I laid out three points for avoiding this kind of thing (i.e. use descriptive definitions, Don't equivocate, etc)

 

[Aldarc]

I am just commenting on what I saw. But I said from the start, this is a very common tactic. I think the reason Pemerton gets it so much is because he is effective at it (and posts a lot). But I laid out three points for avoiding this kind of thing (i.e. use descriptive definitions, Don't equivocate, etc)

And I would "[common] on what I saw" that Pemerton follows your three points far more than many of the people debating Pemerton that you quote.

 

[Imaro]

You know one of the things that I find strange about [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s claims about his specific type of player agency and his playstyle is that while it isn't decided by secret backstory... player agency is still decided by the GM.

If on a successful check the fiction the player desires is realized (example: there is a secret door) and on a failed check the fiction the player desires is not realized (example: There is no secret door)... who sets the standard for success around the said action (and thus the realization or non-realization of the player's desired fiction? Doesn't whoever decides this in turn limit or even control player agency. Unless we are talking about a game that has objectively defined criteria to meet for every action then the GM does in fact have power to limit and even negate (impossible DC's) player agency. Am I missing something here or is it specifically negation through secret backstory as opposed to say negation through setting of DC's or modifiers that counts? Because I see both as limiters of player agency.

 

[hawkeyefan]

You know one of the things that I find strange about [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s claims about his specific type of player agency and his playstyle is that while it isn't decided by secret backstory... player agency is still decided by the GM.

If on a successful check the fiction the player desires is realized (example: there is a secret door) and on a failed check the fiction the player desires is not realized (example: There is no secret door)... who sets the standard for success around the said action (and thus the realization or non-realization of the player's desired fiction? Doesn't whoever decides this in turn limit or even control player agency. Unless we are talking about a game that has objectively defined criteria to meet for every action then the GM does in fact have power to limit and even negate (impossible DC's) player agency. Am I missing something here or is it specifically negation through secret backstory as opposed to say negation through setting of DC's or modifiers that counts? Because I see both as limiters of player agency.

I think that varies by game mechanic. I am not sure what that may be in Burning Wheel, which seems to be pemerton's primary game, but in Dungeon World and other Powered By the Apocalypse games, there is a set mechanic. Roll 2d6, add your relevant skill or modifier, and if you get a 10+ you succeed, a 7 to 9 you partially succeed or succeed but face some complication, and on a 6 or lower you fail.

So the game has a mechanic that does not rely on the GM to make a judgment call on how difficult a task would be and then set that as a target number or DC, as is done in most versions of D&D and similar games. Instead, the only variables are the PC's skill or ability that is pertinent to the task at hand, and the random die roll.

I am guessing that Burning Wheel and Cortex+ and the other games pemerton tends to cite are similarly designed. I'm sure he's shared how they work at some point, but I don't recall.

 

[darkbard]

You know one of the things that I find strange about [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s claims about his specific type of player agency and his playstyle is that while it isn't decided by secret backstory... player agency is still decided by the GM.

If on a successful check the fiction the player desires is realized (example: there is a secret door) and on a failed check the fiction the player desires is not realized (example: There is no secret door)... who sets the standard for success around the said action (and thus the realization or non-realization of the player's desired fiction? Doesn't whoever decides this in turn limit or even control player agency. Unless we are talking about a game that has objectively defined criteria to meet for every action then the GM does in fact have power to limit and even negate (impossible DC's) player agency. Am I missing something here or is it specifically negation through secret backstory as opposed to say negation through setting of DC's or modifiers that counts? Because I see both as limiters of player agency.

In [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s approach, the dictum for the GM is "say yes or roll the dice." An addendum to this is "say no if it's impossible for genre conventions" (ie, no searching for laser guns in the Luke's toilet).

A game like 4E, for example, provides a chart of level-appropriate DCs by difficulty, easy, moderate, and hard. Those are fixed numbers. Player build choice affects how well a given PC can meet those various target numbers. None of this is left up to DM whim.

 

[darkbard]

Ninja'd!

 

[Imaro]

I think that varies by game mechanic. I am not sure what that may be in Burning Wheel, which seems to be pemerton's primary game, but in Dungeon World and other Powered By the Apocalypse games, there is a set mechanic. Roll 2d6, add your relevant skill or modifier, and if you get a 10+ you succeed, a 7 to 9 you partially succeed or succeed but face some complication, and on a 6 or lower you fail.

So the game has a mechanic that does not rely on the GM to make a judgment call on how difficult a task would be and then set that as a target number or DC, as is done in most versions of D&D and similar games. Instead, the only variables are the PC's skill or ability that is pertinent to the task at hand, and the random die roll.

I am guessing that Burning Wheel and Cortex+ and the other games pemerton tends to cite are similarly designed. I'm sure he's shared how they work at some point, but I don't recall.

So this playstyle only really works for games specifically designed for it... that's interesting.

EDIT: To further expound I know he often cites the Marvel Heroic rpg and in that there are a couple of things you can do with the Doom Pool that definitely affect player agency (specifically as [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] defines it) listed below.

*To use any affect that normally costs a Plot Point.
*Use special effects (SFX) that cost doom dice to activate.
*Split a hero off from other heroes or force them together.
*Activate a Hero's Limit. But first offer to pay them 1 PP instead.
*Create a new Scene Distinction (costs a D8 or higher). Anyonemay use this Distinction instead of their own Distinctions.
*To have a Villain interrupt the Action Order.
*Activate Scene or Event effects.
*Spend 2D12 to end a scene immediately. If the Heroes wereclose to winning, ask them to describe how they get most ofwhat they want and then present them with a tough choice,you win but X happens or at Y cost. If the Heroes were notclose to winning, ask them to describe how they lost or whatthey had to sacrifice (something significant) to win.

Now I understand he has an issue with secret backstory but honestly most of these effects you can create with the Doom Pool in the MH game seem to tread on the type of player agency he is advocating for... Create a new scene distinction, Ending a scene immediately, Split a hero off or force him to join up with the group... how do these not step all over the type of agency he is advocating for? Is it ok because they aren't secret backstory? Or is the infringement upon agency (regardless of it's source) really the issue...

 

[Imaro]

In [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s approach, the dictum for the GM is "say yes or roll the dice." An addendum to this is "say no if it's impossible for genre conventions" (ie, no searching for laser guns in the Luke's toilet).

A game like 4E, for example, provides a chart of level-appropriate DCs by difficulty, easy, moderate, and hard. Those are fixed numbers. Player build choice affects how well a given PC can meet those various target numbers. None of this is left up to DM whim.

No I disagree... you say 4e has set DC's that are level appropriate but it's still the DM who decides whether it's a hard/moderate or easy check and thus limits player agency through his determination of which of these to use (and in a case where you're actually determining whether things exist I wonder what the process is for determining which to use say in the case of a secret dorr nbeing in a hallway or not) ... all that aside the determination of which DC to use is DM whim.

 

[darkbard]

No I disagree... you say 4e has set DC's that are level appropriate but it's still the DM who decides whether it's a hard/moderate or easy check and thus limits player agency through his determination of which of these to use (and in a case where you're actually determining whether things exist I wonder what the process is for determining which to use say in the case of a secret dorr nbeing in a hallway or not) ... all that aside the determination of which DC to use is DM whim.

That's not a limit on player agency any more than the orc's A.C. is. GM judgment is still a thing in Story Now gaming!