What is *worldbuilding* for?

Well I thought you meant players, because you talked about declaring actions - and it is players who declare actions for their PCs while playing RPGs. I was doing my best to make sense of your post.

I don't know what you mean by PCs declaring actions, and given that is what you were saying that means I don't understand what point you were trying to make.

I did mean players. I mistyped in that response. Because most people make that distinction in context. So I use the term pretty interchangeably.

If I tell you "A player died in my campaign last night and it was awesome", you don't generally assume I mean the death of one of my friends at the table. You assume a player character died. Because it is obvious.
 

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In (2) the player, while still having the hope, also has the meta-knowledge that a good roll guarantees success; which the player in (1) - just like the PC in the fiction - doesn't have.
Well, the PC doesn't know anything about dice rolls. So that is already a player/PC divide in any system that uses dice to resolve action declarations.

In the end, I can only report my experience: rolling and hoping correlates strongly to searching and hoping. The player knows the action isn't futile (because success on the dice is possible); but the PC must at least believe that searching isn't futile, or else s/he wouldn't be doing it.

I have to say, this absolutely boggles my mind: that the mechanics of a game system limit what the DM can describe in a scene!
More description is permitted, but it will just be colour. Whereas the scene distinctions are not mere colour.

"Chill Winds" doesn't tell me if it's snowing (reduced visibility?), or bright sunshine (snow blindness?), or what...which means I'd have to ask.
Well, it doesn't matter to resolution. If you think the Chill Winds are hampering your PC, you can declare as much (and earn a plot point). When you describe what is going on, you might refer to snow being driven by the Chill Winds, or to the winds themselves, as you feel fits your conception of the situation. No one else at the table is going to contradict you.

"Narrow Defile..." needs a direction, which when coupled with the time of day (particularly if it's sunny) would tell me whether the defile is well-lit or is in deep shadow at the moment.
Again, this doesn't matter to resolution.

At the start of the encounter described in my earlier post, the berserker identified and established a defensive position for the PC seer and himself - he delcared that he was moving some rocks into place against the mountain wall (thus using his Godlike Strength as the biggest die in his pool). In my mind's eye, this was on the left looking at the wyverns flying in (because that fitted where those two players were seated at the table relative to me). I don't know how the player envisaged it in detail, but that didn't matter.

Little things like this - if you describe them up front players don't have to ask about them; and yes I'm saying it's usually better to describe in too much detail rather than too little.
The number of RPG tables which worry about the location of the sun, and hence (eg) the difficulties of shooting arrows at backlit foes, or the chance of momentary blindness from looking into ths sun, is - I assert - very very small.

In Cortex+ Heroic, that risk is all subsumed into the Narrow Defile scene distinction.

But, let's try an example. The party enters a study in a castle; they're here looking for a map and have decided that if the castle has a study that's the first place they'll look...and so they either explore until they get there or are framed straight there (no difference for these purposes). In either case, were I to go into detail my narration of the place might go something like:

[sblock]"You've found what appears to be - or have been - a study. It's a small room - maybe 15' on a side - with stone walls, rug-covered floor and plastered-over ceiling; there are no other obvious exits other than the door you are in, and no obvious occupants. A leaded-glass window across the room from you looks out north across the lawn toward the gate house, and allows enough light in that vision here is not really a problem; the room is otherwise unlit. The place clearly isn't used often - dusty gray sheets cover most of the furniture, some of the shapes hinting at two chairs and a table beneath - and everything is covered with a thick layer of dust, slightly stirred up by your arrival. There are but two pieces of furniture not covered by sheets: an overstuffed armchair beneath the window whose sheet - on the floor nexxt to it - has clearly fallen off at some point, and a solid-looking wooden desk just to the right of the door. On this desk are a small box of some sort, an inkwell with what's left of a quill sticking out of it, an empty wine glass, and what might be some papers - it's hard to tell under the dust. The desk also has a couple of closed wide shallow drawers just below its top. A large tall sheet-covered piece of furniture against the west wall might be a bookshelf or a shallow wardrobe - again, hard to tell. What do you do?[/sblock]

So, no mechanics here, just a description in enough detail to forestall some obvious questions and provide lots of things to interact with. Would Cortex+ Heroic allow this, in this wording?
Well, it discourages it.

I would say something more like:

You come into a small sunlit study. The scene distincitons are Stonewalled Room, Sheet-covered Furniture and Dust-covered Desk.​

Oon this approach, if the players look for things on the desk - papers, boxes, whatever - then, given that we're talking about a hunt for something, that would (in mechanical terms) be about creating assets or resources. It probably wouldn't be built into the situation by the GM.

If the GM wants to make the box a feature, then an alternative would be:

You come into a small sunlit study. The scene distincitons are Sheet-covered Furniture, Dust-covered Desk and - on the desk - an Intriguing Box.​
 

When someone uses PC in the way I did, and it is obvious what I mean, but you shrug your shoulders and insist on an unusually strict literal interpretation of my words, its clear you are just using rhetoric to win points in an argument. Your too smart to misunderstand what I was saying.
I did mean players. I mistyped in that response.
Hang on - so now you're angry at me because I conjectured that by "PC" you meant "player", you replied rather angrily saying that you meant "PC", and I was meant to infer that your second reply was a typo and you actually meant that I was correct in my initial interpretation of your post?

People can analyze. But we don't have to accept their conclusions, and if their conclusions and use of terminology make us suspicious
Suspicious of what? My play preferences aren't secret.

But anyway, you clearly have some issue with me and with this thread, so I won't be replying to any more of your posts.
 

Prior to the start of the game, the player works with the DM to come up with a backstory which will include local knowledge if appropriate to the sandbox they are playing inside. More often than not they are travellers coming into a somewhat new area.
I made a couple of posts yesterday that seems pretty on-point in relation to this:

I think it's unrealistic to expect a player-written backstory to cover anything but the tiniest fragment of a person's life. This is the case even in a game with lifepath PC generation (eg Classic Traveller, Burning Wheel) and moreso in games that don't use that sort of method (eg D&D).

For instance, if a PC is a member of an organisation there may be literally dozens or hundreds of NPCs to whom s/he is connected by that. If s/he grew up in a village or town, the same thing will be true. My experience is that no player can be expected to write up all of that.
My worry isn't about the gray/marginal cases, but the idea - to which I was responding - that the player gets to build the character and the GM does everything else. The practical way this is handled much of the time in RPGing is for the PCs to be travellers/strangers, who arrive (at the Keep; in the dungeon; in the village; etc) from somewhere else, and have no roots embedded in the site of the scenario.

As soon as that changes - and the PCs are doing stuff in a place that is their home - then I think the players have to be allowed to exercise some sort of influence over these elements of backstory (if the feeeling of "PC as alien" is to be avoided). Exactly how that is handled depends on system details and table preferences.
 

my worlds really do have a lot detailed. Stuff the players could not possibly know on day one. Finding out those truths is the very purpose of the game to my players.
That seems to resonate with this from the OP:

In classic D&D, the dungeon was a type of puzzle. The players had to map it, by declaring moves (literally) for their PCs. The players, using their PCs as vehicles, had to learn what was in there: this was about inventory - having enough torches, 10' poles, etc - and about game moves too - searching for secret doors, checking ceilings and floors, and so on. And finally, the players had to try and loot it while either avoiding or defeating the monsters guarding the treasures and wandering around the place - this is what the combat mechanics were for.

The game is something of a cross between a wargame and a complex refereed maze. And *worldbuilding* is all about making the maze.
 

Hang on - so now you're angry at me because I conjectured that by "PC" you meant "player", you replied rather angrily saying that you meant "PC", and I was meant to infer that your second reply was a typo and you actually meant that I was correct in my initial interpretation of your post?

No, i wasn't angry over that post. I mistyped and said so. I was taking exception to your response to the initial post.

Suspicious of what? My play preferences aren't secret.

But anyway, you clearly have some issue with me and with this thread, so I won't be replying to any more of your posts.

I will fully admit this is the case Pemerton. I was applying my prior dealings with you to this thread.
 

I did mean players. I mistyped in that response. Because most people make that distinction in context. So I use the term pretty interchangeably.
Different styles and techniques make that distinction more or less important, or more or less, well distinct.

If going for immersion, the point is to erase that distinction as much as possible. PC, Player, Character - it's all 'I' at the table.

In other styles the PC is like the player's piece in the game, it's very much separate, and under his control. At the table, it's not "I open the door," it's "he'll open the door."

In still others, the Character is like a character in fiction that the player is writing or portraying or directing, and the DM is doing the same for the supporting cast of NPCs and the setting they appear in. Sometimes you say 'I' because you're speaking in character to paint the character with that portrayal, other times you're choosing actions or options for the character, again, to express the character concept, but from outside, be defining it, or even having things happen to it that it really wouldn't want to happen, were it a conscious entity rather than an imaginary one.



Sounds like you gravitate to styles where immersions a goal, and the Player/PC/Character distinction is intentionally de-emphasized, while pemerton tends to those that keep the lines between player and character sharp.
 

I'm not [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], but I think it's clear to anyone who has been keeping up with the thread that the sort of agency he has been talking about, from the beginning of the thread, is agency over the content of the shared fiction. Say it with me: "agency over the content of the shared fiction", authorship, if you will. He hasn't said anything about the sort of agency that allows you to have your character try things that are doomed to failure, except that it seems rather limited with respect to the content of the shared fiction.

Cool, and if that was all he was doing, it would be good. It's not, though. He's taking his definitions and using them to put down other playstyles, which isn't cool.
 

Different styles and techniques make that distinction more or less important, or more or less, well distinct.

If going for immersion, the point is to erase that distinction as much as possible. PC, Player, Character - it's all 'I' at the table.

In other styles the PC is like the player's piece in the game, it's very much separate, and under his control. At the table, it's not "I open the door," it's "he'll open the door."

In still others, the Character is like a character in fiction that the player is writing or portraying or directing, and the DM is doing the same for the supporting cast of NPCs and the setting they appear in. Sometimes you say 'I' because you're speaking in character to paint the character with that portrayal, other times you're choosing actions or options for the character, again, to express the character concept, but from outside, be defining it, or even having things happen to it that it really wouldn't want to happen, were it a conscious entity rather than an imaginary one.



Sounds like you gravitate to styles where immersions a goal, and the Player/PC/Character distinction is intentionally de-emphasized, while pemerton tends to those that keep the lines between player and character sharp.

All I was saying is, it is usually pretty obvious when someone says something like ‘the PCs declare their actions’ that what is meant is’the players’. When it is that obvious, the distinction isn’t important to make in conversation.

my complaint was the ‘what’s a truck’ shrug posts.
 
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