What is *worldbuilding* for?


You're welcome :)

And yes, a DM in any system can dial the lethality and danger level up or down. What I look at for comparison purposes is how it appears as written - what the RAW say.

For example, it's pretty clear that instant death at 0 h.p. in a system where you don't get many h.p. (e.g. 0e or Basic D&D) is likely to be much more common than in a system where you get multiple rounds of saves to avoid it during which time you can be cured up from a distance (e.g. 4e or 5e D&D) and where you almost certainly started with relatively more h.p. in the first place. Further, early D&D editions (pre-3e) include level draining and a relatively good chance of losing magic items now and then, both of which have been either removed or drastically scaled back in the newer version (post 3x - 3x/PF itself falls kind of in the middle here).

Edit to add: and these differences in design/rules are inevitably going to affect the play style at the table. which is my point.

Lanefan

I guess, but I don't think that 4e really establishes a very hard and fast lethality level at all. Maybe B/X is more likely to be filled with deaths? Honestly we didn't kill tons of PCs even back then. Some died, and replacing them was easy, but it wasn't usually considered "what it was about" for us.

Now, in 4e what I found was that its actually VERY easy to make it lethal. H1, Keep on the Shadowfell, in fact, the first 'real' 4e adventure, is QUITE deadly. It was noted for one particular section where really superior play was required in order to survive (the 'Irontooth' encounter). Many TPKs were issued at that point (though I never ran the module myself).

I did one real full hard TPK in 4e, though we had fun (giant spiders 'killed' the party, so of course it became an 'Ettercap', everyone groaned and was amused). Could have made them roll up new characters, but sheesh.

There were though NUMEROUS 'valiant deaths' and similar situations. Its a lot easier to pull that off in 4e than in AD&D or B/X, etc. It just works a lot more reliably, but the actual baseline lethality is pretty ambiguous.
 

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In [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s approach, the dictum for the GM is "say yes or roll the dice." An addendum to this is "say no if it's impossible for genre conventions" (ie, no searching for laser guns in the Luke's toilet).
The Luke's toilet? :)

Just as an aside question: in a DM-driven game the DM can now and then introduce non-genre-convention stuff into the game e.g. a spaceship into a sword-and-sorcery setting. How could this be done (if at all) in story-now where the players can't declare out of genre and the DM has to stick with what the players are doing?
 

Classic D&D dungeon crawling will only work in a system that's designed for it (eg it needs rules for mapping, for wandering monsters, for searching, etc). You can't do that sort of play using Cortex+ Heroic,
That - and the reverse, for example doing story-now in 1e D&D - is only true if you take the view that the game/campaign/style of play is subservient to the system rather than the system being subservient to the game. It's always possible to make something work given enough kitbashing of the rules - it just sometimes takes more effort than it's really worth.

And I've never seen any rules for mapping; only suggestions in places like the 1e PH and DMG that it's a good idead for players to do so. :)

and frankly even classic systems like RQ and RM aren't very good at it because they don't have the right sort of rules for combat and saving throws.
Again, your rules-mashing toolkit is your friend. Overlaying a saving throw system onto any of these can't be that difficult, surely. Combat would be messy to fix, if only because combat is always messy to fix no matter what the system. :)

Lanefan
 

I did mean players. I mistyped in that response. Because most people make that distinction in context. So I use the term pretty interchangeably.

If I tell you "A player died in my campaign last night and it was awesome", you don't generally assume I mean the death of one of my friends at the table. You assume a player character died. Because it is obvious.
This is in fact one of my own pet peeves and always has been, when people use these terms interchangeably. It's annoying at the least, and adds greatly to confusion at the wosrt.

Lan-"I've killed many a character but have yet to kill a player, though there's occasionally been times of severe tempation..."-efan
 

That - and the reverse, for example doing story-now in 1e D&D - is only true if you take the view that the game/campaign/style of play is subservient to the system rather than the system being subservient to the game. It's always possible to make something work given enough kitbashing of the rules - it just sometimes takes more effort than it's really worth.
I can tell you, forcing Gygax's AD&D into "story now" service is not easy. Oriental Adventures is easier, for mostly obvious reasons - both the default PC builds, and the default setting, produce pretty clear "hooks" for thematic play.

Trying to do dungeon crawling of the classic D&D variety would be impossible, or near enough to, using Cortex+ Heroic.

Of course you can introduce new rules if you want, and take out the rules that get in the way, but that doesn't show that any system can do anything; it shows that if you design the right system, it can do what you want.

And I've never seen any rules for mapping; only suggestions in places like the 1e PH and DMG that it's a good idead for players to do so.
Well, you need rules - for moving X feet per turn, for instance; for buying torches, and their duration; etc. And also conventions, for example about how the GM describes rooms to the players. Cortex+ doesn't have either.

Overlaying a saving throw system onto any of these can't be that difficult, surely. Combat would be messy to fix, if only because combat is always messy to fix no matter what the system.
RM and RQ don't have D&D-style level scaling, hit points or saves of the sort that makes dungeon crawling work (RM has levels, but they don't do the same work; both have "Resistance Roll" mechanics, but they're not the same sort of luck-based thing as D&D saves).

Really, if someone wants to run a classic dungeon crawl why not use some version of classic D&D? (Moldvay is probably the gold standard, but I personally have a soft spot for AD&D, purely for nostalgic reasons I think.) If you're running RQ or RM, that probably means you don't want to run dungeon crawls!
 

Well, the PC doesn't know anything about dice rolls. So that is already a player/PC divide in any system that uses dice to resolve action declarations.

In the end, I can only report my experience: rolling and hoping correlates strongly to searching and hoping. The player knows the action isn't futile (because success on the dice is possible); but the PC must at least believe that searching isn't futile, or else s/he wouldn't be doing it.
Not quite.

In (1) the PC has no idea if the search is futile or not and on failure still has no idea if the search was futile or just badly done; ditto for the player (assuming these rolls are hidden, which for just this reason they should be). In (2) what you say above is true, and that very player knowledge that the action isn't futile vs. their not knowing is exactly the difference I'm both getting at and saying is bad: it hauls the player out into the meta-game no matter how hard she tries to resist.

More description is permitted, but it will just be colour. Whereas the scene distinctions are not mere colour.

Well, it doesn't matter to resolution. If you think the Chill Winds are hampering your PC, you can declare as much (and earn a plot point). When you describe what is going on, you might refer to snow being driven by the Chill Winds, or to the winds themselves, as you feel fits your conception of the situation. No one else at the table is going to contradict you.
Alright.

What if a player (intentionally or otherwise) forces you to introduce a fourth element - say, she tries to climb one of the cliffs along the defile, so now you have to worry about a Steep Cliff issue. What then?

Again, this doesn't matter to resolution.

At the start of the encounter described in my earlier post, the berserker identified and established a defensive position for the PC seer and himself - he delcared that he was moving some rocks into place against the mountain wall (thus using his Godlike Strength as the biggest die in his pool). In my mind's eye, this was on the left looking at the wyverns flying in (because that fitted where those two players were seated at the table relative to me). I don't know how the player envisaged it in detail, but that didn't matter.
For tactical reasons it certainly would matter! :) I've had characters die in the past due to just this: where a DM describes enough to let me imagine a scene or element, and I act based on my envisioning of what was described. Problem is, his envisioning is different and his descripton is just vague enough to allow either interpretation...

What follows is usually a fearsome argument.

This is why I use minis, so that everyone has roughly the same idea of how the various moving parts spatially correlate in situations like this. For this set-up I'd probably make each square represent 50' or so, and place the various minis in a representational manner; it would also allow me to more clearly describe the course the wyverns were taking as they flew in (such things always get misinterpreted IME if just described or done TotM).

The number of RPG tables which worry about the location of the sun, and hence (eg) the difficulties of shooting arrows at backlit foes, or the chance of momentary blindness from looking into ths sun, is - I assert - very very small.
I've never seen a table that wouldn't ask about the level of lighting in the defile if not told, as if it's in deep shadow who knows what could be hiding in there.

Which leads me to this: I'm wondering now if I've got a different view of this scene in my mind as "player" than you do as "GM".

In Cortex+ Heroic, that risk is all subsumed into the Narrow Defile scene distinction.
Which, if "Narrow Deflie" doesn't have a clear definition somewhere in the system rules, is going to lead to a bunch of questions every time to draw out more specifics...at least, it would if I was playing. :)

Well, it discourages it.

I would say something more like:

You come into a small sunlit study. The scene distincitons are Stonewalled Room, Sheet-covered Furniture and Dust-covered Desk.​

Oon this approach, if the players look for things on the desk - papers, boxes, whatever - then, given that we're talking about a hunt for something, that would (in mechanical terms) be about creating assets or resources. It probably wouldn't be built into the situation by the GM.

If the GM wants to make the box a feature, then an alternative would be:

You come into a small sunlit study. The scene distincitons are Sheet-covered Furniture, Dust-covered Desk and - on the desk - an Intriguing Box.​
That would be followed with a boatload of questions from me. :)

Also, doesn't the system limit of so few distinctions - in a scene that might have many - tend to overmuch lead the PCs by the noses to where they need to go? For example, you only mentioning as distinctions the Furniture, Desk and Box immediately tells me-as-player I can ignore the rug, the papers on the desk, the small chandelier*, the fireplace*, and the faded portraits* on the walls as they've all just been defined as irrelevant. My PC, however, wouldn't know this.

* - not included in my original description but I throw them in now as things that could easily be in such a study

And another example of misinterpretation, in this case of a detailed description: in my narration I state the window looks out to the north, meaning that while the room is daylit it's unlikely to actually be sunlit unless it's early morning or late evening in the summer (and if such was the case I'd have amended the narration to suit). Sunlit vs. daylit makes a huge difference to the ambient light level in the room; only being daylit means there'll be some dark shadowy corners, and with all this dust if someone lights a torch or candle during their search... :)

Lan-"yeah, there's a reason I mention the dust three or four times in that narration: it's the room's hidden hazard"-efan
 
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Now, in 4e what I found was that its actually VERY easy to make it lethal. H1, Keep on the Shadowfell, in fact, the first 'real' 4e adventure, is QUITE deadly. It was noted for one particular section where really superior play was required in order to survive (the 'Irontooth' encounter). Many TPKs were issued at that point (though I never ran the module myself).
Oddly enough, that's one that I have run - I converted it for my game. Ten years ago, mind you, so I don't remember the "Irontooth" encounter by that name.

It was nowhere near as deadly to the PCs as Keep on the Borderlands, whch I'd run shortly prior (first three adv's for that party were KotB, a homebrew one, then KotS renamed). They were on average 2nd level throughout KotS, with some 3rds by the end.

I have grumbled about some elements of the way that thing was written ever since, but the level and type of oppostion was quite reasonable overall - no complaints there.

There were though NUMEROUS 'valiant deaths' and similar situations. Its a lot easier to pull that off in 4e than in AD&D or B/X, etc. It just works a lot more reliably, but the actual baseline lethality is pretty ambiguous.
The sense I got from reading in here - and feel free to support or correct this - was that individual deaths were less common in 4e, but if one died chances were they'd all die as they'd tend to rise and fall together much more than in earlier editions.

Lan-"4e was designed for smaller parties than 0e-1e also, which plays into it"-efan
 
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This is in fact one of my own pet peeves and always has been, when people use these terms interchangeably. It's annoying at the least, and adds greatly to confusion at the wosrt.

Lan-"I've killed many a character but have yet to kill a player, though there's occasionally been times of severe tempation..."-efan

Well, sorry to hear that, but I use them interchangeably unless I think it isn't clear from context (and even then, I honestly am not too concerned about it). Hate to sound like a jerk (and not trying to be one), but I am not going to change the way I talk or communicate because someone on a forum gets annoyed or finds it lacks precision.
 

Irregardless of why the DM would/could manipulate the DC's...

No matter how many times you write "irregardless" (and I've seen you use it a dozen times, at least), it is still not a word. Use "regardless" or "irrespective of" in its place. Grammar has no bearing on your argument, and I'm not trying to "take you down"; I am simply an English professor with just enough ingrained pedantry not to pass up an opportunity for education.

It is still a limiter on player agency because determining the DC is DM whim. Even if you tell the PC's what the DC is it still is determined (and thus their chance of success) by you. Like I said earlier DW is an example of a game where this is truly mitigated but in 4e that's not the case. In the same way secret backstory can limit the agency of players so can subjective DC's. It doesn't have to be a purposeful manipulation... Unless you are being transparent with how you come to choose your DC's, your players are unaware of the conscious and subconscious biases that lead to choosing one DC vs. another. That is a limiter on agency and is an unknown in the same way that secret backstory is unknown.

In my game the default is the Moderate DC; I'm not choosing DC difficulty willy-nilly. If circumstances are particularly favorable or unfavorable for a check, resulting in an Easy or Hard DC, that is explicitly discussed. There are some circumstances that would call for an Easy or Hard DC as the default (one example is more complex SCs include one or more Hard checks), but, again, those are made clear to the players; they are not set to GM whim.



Wait what? Unless the players can now frame their own adversaries, which I haven't seen an example of so far how is this remotely true? [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] has chosen the adversaries that his players have faced in the "story" as far as I can tell and a red dragon could easily be framed as opposition to numerous goals. This isn't really making any sense. unless you are now saying that nothing is allowed to be created without the players "ok" in Stoiry Now gaming... is that the case?

I am certainly not suggesting [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] does not choose his adversaries, nor that I do mine. I am explaining that adversaries are introduced with regard to their salience in play, not as "gotcha" impossible foes or obstacles, which would be in direct opposition to the "fail forward" maxim. (And this, of course, is not to say that PCs do not fail in declared actions, do not face serious risks of death, etc. Failing forward and failure are not mutually exclusive!)

The Luke's toilet? :)

All this talk of Burning Wheel lately (Luke Crane) must have my left middle finger confused with my right ring finger! :D

TheJust as an aside question: in a DM-driven game the DM can now and then introduce non-genre-convention stuff into the game e.g. a spaceship into a sword-and-sorcery setting. How could this be done (if at all) in story-now where the players can't declare out of genre and the DM has to stick with what the players are doing?

I can only address how I would handle this: In my game, if there were to be genre-defying elements, we, as a group, would have to have agreed upon them in advance of play, something like "Okay, we've decided to play a game focused on Bronze Age hunters faced with a new ice age who seek to discover a refuge for their people against the encroaching glaciers. But the human inhabitants of the world are actually descendents of aliens who crashed on the planet millenia ago, so some few relics of this ancient history may occasionally become part of play."

I wouldn't just add elements like this if they weren't agreed upon and didn't speak to group expectations in some way.
 

No matter how many times you write "irregardless" (and I've seen you use it a dozen times, at least), it is still not a word. Use "regardless" or "irrespective of" in its place. Grammar has no bearing on your argument, and I'm not trying to "take you down"; I am simply an English professor with just enough ingrained pedantry not to pass up an opportunity for education.

Really, your correcting the guy's grammar? My experience is most people who use this word, understand this, but use it because that is how people around them talk. I use all kinds of regional language I know isn't technically good grammar.
 

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