What is wrong with Epic Material?

[Shemeska]

The ELH tended to define a notion of 'Epic' that was, well... Lord Crunchy McMunchy in the land of the Pun-Puns. Bigger numbers, overly complex rules, even bigger numbers, and a feeling that everything and anything can be and should be pinned down to the last skill point and bonus in a very mechanical, rules-heavy notion of play. Epic as defined by the ELH gets mocked as [booming voice]EPIC!!!1!!1![/booming voice], and perhaps that's the face that it presented. Half the discussions on the WotC Epic level board seem indistinguishable from the Character Optimization boards, with the chatter being about 'builds' more than anything else.

I've done campaigns stretching up into the 30's, and virtually all of that is anathema to me and my group's play style. I don't feel a need to have rules for beings that operate as plot devices, nor a need to have gods and archfiends as orcs in costumes with 100 extra hit dice and an extra page of stats. Some people might like this I suppose, but some people also obsess about stat blocks for Zeus or their 500th level half-fiend, half-celestial, half-vampire deathless LeShay fighter/rogue. Some people might complain that a lack of official stats for X epic level being oppresses them.

Totally different play styles, but the ELH only touches on and seems to promote a very numbers heavy, very rules-heavy notion of epic play, and for whatever reason (speculate as you will) that perspective seems to have failed to create a market for additional products in the same style.

 

[Imruphel]

Bland.

Boring.

Flavourless.

Hmmm, I suppose they all mean essentially the same thing.

Too much space was wasted on one of the worst pieces of design in D&D history: the city of Union. The design philosophy behind this seemed to be, "pretend that you're 12 again but this time you actually get to be published." Truly horrid.

I think the Epic ruleset is one of those things where you need your BEST designer working on the book with a really clear and coherent vision for what is to be achieved. Maybe someone like Monte or Rich Baker, guys who know how to tweak the rules while considering the consequences of same. And then the developers and editors also need to be on the same page.

 

[hong]

You're already epic by 9th level. You can teleport halfway across the world, raise the dead, speak with the gods, and so on. That's pretty "epic".

The reason for the ELH is purely mechanical: to allow people to keep playing the same characters, in the manner they're accustomed to. Most of the problems with >20th level play make themselves known before then, they just get more severe.

 

[Pants]

Bland.

Boring.

Flavourless.

Hmmm, I suppose they all mean essentially the same thing.

Too much space was wasted on one of the worst pieces of design in D&D history: the city of Union. The design philosophy behind this seemed to be, "pretend that you're 12 again but this time you actually get to be published." Truly horrid.

I think the Epic ruleset is one of those things where you need your BEST designer working on the book with a really clear and coherent vision for what is to be achieved. Maybe someone like Monte or Rich Baker, guys who know how to tweak the rules while considering the consequences of same. And then the developers and editors also need to be on the same page.

QFT.

I will say that the Epic Monsters in the ELH are actually pretty flavorful (not counting a few...) and cool. Some are just big, cool campaign hooks waiting to happen.

 

[Glyfair]

You're already epic by 9th level. You can teleport halfway across the world, raise the dead, speak with the gods, and so on. That's pretty "epic".

You know, that pinpoints what I consider the major problem with "epic" as it's typically conceived. Spell casters can do really amazxing things. Non-spellcasters are the same old-same old, but bigger.

That's what an epic level book should focus on. Give it some continuation for spell casters, bit really focis on non-spellcasters. That and give a good way to fit epic in a typical campaign world without completely changing the setting.

 

[hong]

That's what an epic level book should focus on. Give it some continuation for spell casters, bit really focis on non-spellcasters.

*cough* Book of 9 Swords

 

[pawsplay]

1. Epic spells are fundamentally flawed.
2. Most epic feats offer more "bang for the buck" when they should actually offer diminishing returns.
3. Epic BAB and save progression is a terrible kludge; not only is it inconsistent with monsters, it produces some weird effects described above. Error checking epic characters would be a nightmare, since it matters drastically when they took what.
4. "Oh, yes, and magic items can actually be +6 or higher and advance indefinitely and aren't artifacts after all" is stupid from a campaign design standpoint.
5. Most epic skill uses should be banned. The best of the lot should be feats or class abilities.
6. Few meaningful prestige options. Just give me some overpowered feats, baby! Bonus feats FTW.
7. Just some really bad design... a character with one level of paladin can take a feat that makes all of his weapons holy, epic sneak attack is set at a very odd level, full attacks with two weapons, etc.


Overall, I would much rather use the method described in the FRCS... each epic level can grant +1 BAB or +1 to saves or +1 caster/class level or a bonus feat or an ability score point. Scavenge the best epic feats. Even that's not ideal (hence the epic handbook itself), but it's still better than what happened in those pages.

 

[kolikeos]

Epic in general is just stupid IMO, therfore I never use it.

 

[Stalker0]

You're already epic by 9th level. You can teleport halfway across the world, raise the dead, speak with the gods, and so on. That's pretty "epic".

The reason for the ELH is purely mechanical: to allow people to keep playing the same characters, in the manner they're accustomed to. Most of the problems with >20th level play make themselves known before then, they just get more severe.

Hong is right on the money with this one. Thing is, Dnd does an amazing job of modeling a large range of powers. Much better than some other systems. But....every system has its limits, and if you stretch that too far it breaks.

Dnd tends to show its seams a bit past 12th level, but in general people deal with it. 17+ with 9th level spells it get a bit worse. But once you get to epic levels, things just start breaking down.

Honestly, there is no true fix without creating a completely different dnd. You cannot take the same system of numbers and push it forever and expect it to work.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

There was also the included "Epic setting", a planar city called "Union".

Which was... less than inspiring.